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Featured the "T" of the TULIP

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Sep 24, 2020.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    SCRIPTURE teaches and CALVINISTS believe:

    The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness because the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and from within his heart flows all sorts of evil (Mark 7:21-23). He is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is why he cannot come to Christ (John 6:44; John 6:65) - CARM

    (T)otal depravity
    • Gen. 6:5, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
    • Gen. 8:21, "And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."
    • Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?"
    • Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness."
    • John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
    • John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"
    • John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
    • John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"
    • John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
    • Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"
    • Rom. 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
    • Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
    • Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."
    • Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."
    • 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
    • Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
    • Eph. 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
    • Eph. 2:15, "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace
     
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    @Van is now invited to explain how all of these verses really mean something else since the Biblical teaching on the depravity of man is false.
     
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  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    For everyone else, some verses on:

    God's work

    It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), grants us repentance (2 Timothy 2:24-25), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6:44) , grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8:29-30), and he does all of this according to His purpose (Ephesians 1:11). - CARM

    • John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
    • John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"
    • John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
    • John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"
    • Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
    • Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
    • Eph. 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."
    • Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
    • Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
    • Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
    • 2 Thess. 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
    • 2 Tim. 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
    • 2 Tim. 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."
    • 1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, I say the "T" of the TULIP, Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine, and I am charged with denying the depravity of man.
    Is it possible for any Calvinist to get anything right? Apparently not!!!

    Over two dozen verses, an avalanche of copy and paste claims, was presented. But here is the specific response, there is not one verse or passage that supports Calvinism's false doctrine of total spiritual inability.

    Lets just discuss the first one by way of explanation: Genesis 6:5-8

    Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

    The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

    If verse 5 means lost people are incapable of setting their minds on some spiritual things, spiritual milk, some of the time, then Noah would not have found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
     
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Five points of Calvinism

    Total depravity
    Unconditional election
    Limited atonement
    Irresistible grace
    Perseverance of the saints


    Most objections to and attacks on Calvinism focus on the "five points of Calvinism", also called the doctrines of grace, and remembered by the mnemonic "TULIP". The five points were more recently popularized in the 1963 booklet The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. The origins of the five points and the acronym are uncertain, but they appear to be outlined in the Counter Remonstrance of 1611, a less known Reformed reply to the Arminians that occurred prior to the Canons of Dort. The acronym was used by Cleland Boyd McAfee as early as circa 1905. An early printed appearance of the T-U-L-I-P acronym is in Loraine Boettner's 1932 book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. The acronym was very cautiously if ever used by Calvinist apologists and theologians before the booklet by Steele and Thomas.

    The central assertion of these points is that God saves every person upon whom he has mercy, and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or inability of humans.


    • "Total depravity", also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved (the term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be). This doctrine is derived from Calvin's interpretation of Augustine's explanation about Original Sin. While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.
    - Wikipedia

    "The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him." [Proverbs 18:17 NASB]
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Shall we address another claimed support, Jeremiah 17:9? Sure

    “The heart is more deceitful than all else
    And is desperately sick;
    Who can understand it?

    Does this indicate that in our fallen and corrupted state, we cannot set our minds, some of the time, on some spiritual things, spiritual milk? Nope. But it does say we are sick, and cannot understand nor fix our own hearts, thus we need a Savior. Spiritual milk my friends.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More avalanche posts, copy and pasting bogus arguments.

    By the use of such tactics, obfuscation by verbiage dump, truth cannot be hid.

    The people of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom, thus seeking God, thus having some limited spiritual ability. There were not being compelled by irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in.

    But here is the specific response, there is not one verse or passage that supports Calvinism's false doctrine of total spiritual inability.
     
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  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You already know I do not believe in total depravity because in just about every generation the next generation will out perform the evil of the last. I do not believe Gentiles are unable to respond to the Gospel. I believe the blindness and deftness is meant for the Jew, because there rejection of Christ as there messiah. The Gentiles can and do hear and understand.
    Acts 28:28 says so. I've had lost people tell me they understand but just do not wish to be a Christian. As I did in the beginning before I was saved. I heard the gospel and I listened for several years
    Paul said to believe. Why would he say such a thing to a Jailer if there was any chance he would not be saved or could not believe? Obviously The Jailer was listening to what Paul was saying, before he sprung in and asked what he must do to be saved. This guy was seeking salvation and found it along with his whole family. Why wasn't he just saved like the Calvinist are? They don't have to believe to be saved. Don't you find this peculiar? Why did the Jailer have to believe to be savd and Calvinist don't?
    MB
     
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Then the Calvinist strawman you erected lies defeated.
    If you actually READ my 'copy and paste' that explained what Calvinism teaches you would know what the T actually stands for.
    If only Calvinism taught what you claim it teaches, your shout of victory would seem less hollow.
     
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  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I will gladly devote days to answering every item in your post and every question you have, but I ask one small favor first so we are not talking PAST each other.

    What do you think "total depravity" means?
    Just give me your definition as you understand the term so we can start from the same "ground zero".
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Please identify which specific Calvinistic claims related to "Total depravity" (aka. total inability) are false:
    • all people are affected by Adam's sin
    • every person is enslaved to sin
    • People are not by nature inclined to love God
    • People are inclined to serve their own interests
    • People are inclined to reject the rule of God
    • all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation
    • all people by their own faculties are morally unable to save themselves
    • sin affects every part of a person
    • (every person is NOT as evil as they could be)
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul described for us 3 classes of people Van, babes in Christ, who take only milk, mature, who get the steak, and unsaved who receive nothing of aid from the Bible!
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    It Means man is totally depraved and unable to respond to the gospel with out being regenerated so that he can be saved. He cannot believe know or understand the gospel. My self I do not agree. I believe man in his natural state is evil with the propensity to become more evil over time but I do not think man has ever reached his maximum evil as yet. God has brought to my attention the meaning of the word "total" It means there is nothing left out. In total depravity there is nothing one can do to become even more evil that is if it is in fact total. Man in his natural state is always on a downward path. Some of them are professing Christians.
    Man does not loose his natural personality after Salvation there is no man who does not sin. Regeneration does not remove the evil nature of man it will always be with man until his flesh is redeemed. Being regenerated does not means you have anymore ability than you did to begin with.Except that Christ is on my side now to help me grow and to have a stronger faith. I don't see my understanding has changed since I was 9 or 10 years of age yet I wasn't saved until I was 14. I've never experienced any inability because I was so sinful. When I was saved it was an emotional event. I was set free. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I can't find the words to express what a wonderful thing it was to have Christ in my heart.
    So where was my total depravity? My inabilities to believe in and seek God?
    MB
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Deflection on display. Denial of the obvious. Calvinism's Total Spiritual Inability is false as shown by Matthew 23:13.

    The people of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom, thus seeking God, thus having some limited spiritual ability. There were not being compelled by irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in.

    But here is the specific response, there is not one verse or passage that supports Calvinism's false doctrine of total spiritual inability.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, Total Spiritual Inability says the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ. And that claim is false.
    Folks, pay no attention to the efforts at obfuscation and deflection.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We have been all through this. Your denial of scripture is sad. Paul used spiritual milk to talk as to men of flesh. This of course teaches men of flesh understand and respond to spiritual milk. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    ... Except all those verses in the OP. :)
     
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Untrue, every Calvinist will affirm that Hindus and Muslims and Jehovah's Witness are all working their butts off seeking "god".
    What Calvinists claim is that fallen men is "morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation".
    That's the part of Calvinism that you refuse to even try to understand. [see Ephesians 2:1-10]
     
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  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What is there to understand. Can you even explain it?. There certainly isn't anything in scripture that explains it only Calvinist insist on it show us. Show what makes your Calvinism higher than any other doctrine where in scripture does it ever say we are totally depraved. I've read Romans 3 10 -20 and it never says we are unable to respond to the gospel. It's merely the sayings of a fool in the Psalms. You guys always act like you know it all but when it comes down to proving it you dodge the questions. Why is that?
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All seek after a god of their own making, but unless the Holy Spirit enables a lost sinner to seek and to come to know the real God, they cannot!
     
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