The Tide Shifting Against the Death Penalty

Are you certain about that? :laugh:

I'd rather debate with the likes of Matt Wade, since he is at least pro-life on the matter of abortion. You have stated on this board that you are very certain that you are most definitely uncertain about when life begins. So you need to go take a remedial course in Biblical thinking, and when you pass that, then you can come in the debate that Matt and I are having.

 

I'll answer your question with as much honesty as I can. I don't claim every bit of what I'm about to say is true to how God would have me act. My carnal nature may come through in some of what I say.

If I was drafted to go fight in a war, where my family and loved ones were not in immediate and direct danger, I would refuse to take part in that war. If the war was happening on my door step and my family was in immediate danger, I would protect my family and give my own life for them.

 

So you're saying that protecting your family would be against God's will? Don't you see how twisted that thinking is? I know the typical Bible verses that you would throw out to justify such sloppy thinking, but you are grossly misinterpreting and twisting the meanings of those verses.

 

yOU ARE WRONG AGAIN ! I belive life begins at conception, I'm not SURE when we become ensouled. I don't need a "course" ,I have the Holy Spirit to help me.

 

No...I'm not saying that at all. Where did I say that? I don't know what God's will in that situation would be. I was simply saying what I would do in that particular situation and that I don't know whether God was approve of my actions or not! I don't plan to use any verses to justify that position. I already stated that the position was from my carnal nature and not something I am trying to justify by God's Word.

 

When you say defending your family from killers comes from your "carnal nature" that is a de facto statement that it is against God's will. Anything that comes from our carnal (i.e., sinful) nature is against God's will, is it not? So if you are sure that such actions would come from your carnal nature, then you can be assured that they are against God's will.

 

Ok, thanks for the distinction. I thought I remembered you defending legalized abortion, or at least questioning if we should make it illegal. From that, I gathered that you were not anti-abortion, at least for the first few months of pregnancy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, if you are unsure of when a person is "ensouled" then I would think you would play it safe and protect all life from the moment of conception, since it could be ensouled at that point, correct? I mean, why take a chance?

 

I don't defend abortion at any stage of pregnancy. However, I don't belive making it "illegal" will stop it or even reduce it drasticly. Look at how the "drug war" has worked out. Putting more people in cages is not the answer for me. I hardly ever "play it safe". I embrace "mystery" but never "certitude".

 

Sorry buddy ! o.k. back to the Death Penalty or as some here call it "CP". I have one question. If an innocent person is put to death, who in the death house is the murderer 1. The guy who flips the switch (or gives the injection), 2. the judge (or jury) who handed down the sentance. OR 3. all those who support the death penalty. Who has the blood on their hands ?

 

I would venture to say that a very small percentage of people who are put to death are truly "innocent". They MAY be innocent of the crime they are put to death for but there is a big chance that they did something else to deserve it.

God isn't stupid, y'know. He wouldn't command something in His word if He didn't mean for us to do it.

 

Do you stone your children when they are rebellous ?

 

Let's see- 270 'innocent' people- I say 'innocent' because they were exonerated from the crimes that they were on death row for and if we were to look at each one individually most of them probably have lists of capital crimes as long as my arm- out of 3,000 or so on Death Row in all of the states- that's less than 1%. I wonder how many of the 'innocent' ones have returned to prison after being found 'innocent'?
Of course they aren't going to mention the cases they check where the 'guilty' are indeed, guilty, which would be 99% of the time, presumably.

Like I said, God ain't dumb.

 

Didn't have to- I used the rod (another Bible principle, by the way) so that by the time they were adults they didn't have a problem with rebellion.

God ain't dumb.

 

I don't know - I embrace "mystery" over "certitude." Why do we need certitude when we can cling to mystery in such matters? There, that makes me feel so pious. I am certain that embracing mystery is the only way to go.

 

There is no biblical or even secular ethical support, imo, for abortion which is killing an unborn child who has not had a chance to live outside the womb yet.

There is, however, biblical support for the death penalty. Some disagree that there is such support, but there are passages one can argue do support it.

Since life is so sacred, then one who deliberately takes a life, forfeits his (Gen. 9). The question OldMan asks about stoning rebellious children is irrelevant, since the first directive about forfeiting life for taking life is in Gen. 9, before the Law.

Also, as stated on a previous thread, it is very difficult to get a death penalty. First, the circumstances of the crime must fit the legal requirements for a death penalty case. Then the prosecutor has to decide if he/she wants to ask for the death penalty in that case. This is actually rather infrequent.

Then a jury must decide, after conviction (if the person is convicted), if the death penalty is warranted based on the legal circumstances. Most death penalty cases involve a killing committed during another felony, or torture and/or callous disregard for life (such as killing someone who is pleading for their life).

I spent over 4 years as a paralegal in the criminal division of the Attorney General's office in Ga and had to read and summarize trial transcripts of murder cases. Very few were death penalty cases, and yet GA has one of the highest number of people on death row.

Additionally, people on death row automatically get appeals all the way up and it usually takes years, so there is much time for appeals.

 

Were they innocent or actually found not guilty? Not the same thing.

Or were their sentences overturned for poor legal representation, technicalities, or trial errors?