The Tower In Siloam

Thanks for the link Joseph; and it was rendered just as I expected, which is by far and away the prevailing take on the passage. Excerpt from the link (emphasis mine):

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Note the words “in like manner” and “likewise” in vv. 3 & 5.

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish Lu 13

I suggest to all that the phrases “in like manner” and “likewise” are in reference to the violence of war, which indeed came to pass, and not to random incidents of chance. I would further modify the passage by amplifying vv. 3 & 5 to read:

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood [Pilate's soldiers] had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner [by the sword] perish [in the wrath that is to come upon this generation; i.e. the war of AD 66-70]
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the [soldiers garrisoned in the tower in Siloam] fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise [by the sword] perish [in the wrath that is to come upon this generation; i.e. the war of AD 66-70] Lu 13

 

Thanks for commenting CTB.

Excerpt (emphasis mine) from http://www.tcnj.edu/~wilder/works/bridge.html :

Once again, this is the prevailing take on the passage. Christians have probably pondered this scripture as a devotional for so long they would never consider any other rendering of it.

 

Thanks SN. You do realize that my take on the passage is basically preterist I hope, which is contrary to what's generally believed (concerning Lu 13:1-5).

 

You're not derailing at all. I've made the points that I wanted to on Lu 13:1-5. Most, if not all, make it into devotional passage; I see it otherwise - a prophetic warning of vengeance from 'the Prophet', addressed to 'that generation', which indeed came to pass on 'that generation'. There's many such warnings given by The Prophet contained within the gospels. The sad thing is that so many of these passages concerning 'the Severity of God' that came on 'that generation' are woefully misapplied to the covenant of Grace.

I suppose you're referring to 'full preterism', which I am not, and I'm not qualified to answer that for them. I'm 'partial preterist', or so I've been told, and I'm still looking for the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23,24). However, I believe it's plain from scripture that there was a coming of Christ in judgment on that generation of Jews that both rejected and judicially murdered Him and persecuted the early Church. I'm pan-millennial when it comes to future things.

 

Just 'off the cuff', this partial preterist turns amil and spiritualizes it to refer to the Church. It couldn't apply to physical Israel:

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

 

Excellent question olegig. How does one avoid illegitimate spiritualizing? I love the saying, 'The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed'. I believe the saying had it's origin with Augustine. Anyway, I've found it to be so true and have derived immense pleasure in my personal Bible study for years from following that simple dictate.

How does one avoid illegitimate spiritualizing? IME, you should always first have what I call a 'pointer' to direct you to the passage. The Bible is pregnant with these pointers. Example:

In post #29, I take Mystery Babylon, the great city, to mean apostate Judaism. Why? How? I've a pointer given in 11:8:

And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

There's actually FOUR points of comparison here, Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, and Jerusalem. Therein lies some astounding similes with what transpired during the wrath that came upon 'that generation'. It is my intent, the Lord willing, to share what I see in these as time goes along. You might find it interesting to know that while several prophecies are given in the OT concerning the destruction of Babylon, Babylon was never destroyed as described. It remained a viable city up until the eighth century A.D. when the river Euphrates changed course and left it sitting high and dry. Babylon faded away, it did not meet with the violent destruction as described. But those OT prophecies concerning Babylon very aptly describe what happened during the destruction of Jerusalem. Thus the term, Mystery Babylon?

Here's another pointer example:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

..........another example of regeneration before belief.

Fortunate indeed are those that have been made to feel the serpent's awful sting. Fortunate are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness.

I used a pointer here (to make my point):
......For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: 1 Cor 5:7
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1525840#post1525840

Here's an example of some illegitimate spiritualizing I did that went over like whale dung:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=62718

 

Question for you olegig:

And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away. Mt 21:19

You think this is just an example of our Lord losing his temper at a tree?

 

That's zactly the way I see it MK.

 

Where you at olegig? I thought me and you had a dialog going on here.

 

....well almost. I left off some other information concerning the towers of Jerusalem from Josephus.

 

Is it one way with you? You get to ask all the questions? You've asked three in a row, I replied to two of them. It's your turn to answer now, then I'll move on to the third.

You already know we're not going to agree on that, and besides, if we used the same method of interpretation it wouldn't be a very interesting debate would it? Probably no debate at all.

There's only one 'great city' in Rev.

You asked on when one could spiritualize, I gave my opinion.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

How do you literalize a Book presented in signs, symbols, and picture stories?

Get with it olegig! You might learn something, and have some fun to boot!