1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, Mar 11, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 4 of 8
  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist

    What is important is that we have the words of God because that is how he has chosen to communicate with us. Obviously the words he uses must have a common meaning that all of us are able to understand and agree upon.

    1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    in the same mind

    1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Obviously God intends for us all to think alike and in the same words. This desire of God is violated in many ways by today's philosophy.

    He sure does not want us thinking there is a different meaning in 58 AD of his people Israel than there was in the days of Jacob, when he changed his family name to Israel. That is what you men claim and if you are wrong, which you are, it is because you are deceived greatly , or you are a tare.
     
    #61 JD731, Mar 15, 2023
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, He only predestinated a few, such as Moses, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, & the apostles, except for Iscariot. Everyone else who was/is saved had to come to Him.
    No, they had to come to Jesus to be saved.
     
    #62 robycop3, Mar 15, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, according to you, only a few were saved by grace. Everyone else was saved by works.
    Clearly you do not recognize your heinous error and that your teaching is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. This makes me sad for you.
     
    #63 AustinC, Mar 15, 2023
  4. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,506
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems that might fit in with the "Many are called...few are "CHOSEN!", doesn't it?
     
    #64 AVL1984, Mar 15, 2023
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,512
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Something happen between these two time periods.

    I placed the thing that happened between the two portions of your comment, below;

    "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" Acts 2:23.


    The Jews where responsible for the Crucifixion of God's Son.

    They, as "the fig tree", had already had their doom pronounced by Jesus, before that committed the worst crime in the history of mankind against Him.

    "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.    " Matthew 21:19

    There is a remnant of them that will be saved, but for their ultimate apostasy, Israel has been Judged and abandoned as special servants and witnesses for God, as "chosen people".

    "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Acts 13:46.

    2 "Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God"     Romans 3:2

    "The Lord's words are plain. They admit of no exception. And moreover, they were spoken directly into Jewish ears, and were intended primarily as a warning to a Jewish audience. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth in the Kingdom of their Father."

    There is no 'second chance' for anyone, once Jesus returns One Time in Judgment. That will be the Consummation of all things, contrary to Satan's jive that causes no evangelism or concern about the Jews, now.

    "THE PERSONAL
    TEACHING OF CHRIST:

    Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43. This passage contains the parable of the Tares of the Field. Its teaching on the subject of our inquiry is plain; for the meaning of the parable is explained by the Lord Himself. Its emphasis is upon what will happen at the end of the age. Two classes of people are now mingled together in the world, even as wheat and tares are mingled together in the same field. That state of things is to continue [160] v. 30). The tares include all who are not "the children of the kingdom," that is to say, all who, whether Jews or Gentiles, have not been regenerated by receiving "the good seed" of the gospel".

    "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Romans 9:6.

    This idea about there being some 'second chance' for some people greatly effects evangelism and is actually another gospel, along with ' Jesus will one day come back and talk to some people personally', so why should we have to, now?

    The church I am a member of is Premillennial, believing all that, like many Landmark Baptists thanks to Scofield ruining it for everybody.

    I am utterly Blessed by God's unmerited Mercy to have been taught Amillennialism and hold that Christ's reign during the millennium (Biblically known only as a "1000 years") is symbolic representation of Christ's current spiritual reign from Him in Heaven, during this present Inter-Advental period of The New Testament era and Church Age, with Jesus ruling from His Throne in and through His local church assemblies and the remaining saved individuals in The Kingdom of God, then, at the end of the Church Age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent reign in the "new heaven and new Earth."

    That will be The End of the world and the Great Consummation, forever.

    You should look and search for anything else but that in 66 New Testament scriptures I'll try to post, as in here: 9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.

    My being an Amillennialist is not a test of fellowship and I certainly don't pipe up about it to cause a ruckus, although I did slip and say "Br. Gormally" (our former 52-year-long pastor who is now in Glory) "is an Amillennialist, now"....)

    I was taught Amillennialism by a hardcore Historical Landmark Baptist God-called preacher and author that I just KNEW had to be nuts, when I first heard him.

    And I get Philip Mauro's book, among many others about Amillennialism, from our former Deen's library after he passed.

    So, I'm not the only one that can't find Premillennialism in the very Words in the texts.
     
    #65 Alan Gross, Mar 15, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,325
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My thoughts.

    And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint (Predestinate), conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born (Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) among many brethren; and whom He did fore-appoint (predestinate), these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

    Called and predestinated, according to purpose, that being, to be the remnant to rule with him in the kingdom of his glory until all enemies is put under his feet, including death, the last enemy.

    Through this salvation can come to all Israel and also to the nations.

    There is a reason the good figs of the House of Judah was in the land in 4 BC and the bad figs of the House of Judah were scattered among the Gentiles as Jews and also the House of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles as, you are not my people and I am not your God even though they were foreknown. Through the HS they can be grafted back in.


    IMHO
     
    #66 percho, Mar 15, 2023
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The church of Jesus Christ, which had it's beginning after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, when the spiritual provisions of the New Covenant were available, which are the cleansing blood of Christ, his Spirit to indwell the blood washed believer, and the new birth as a son of God. This is what took place on the cross. It is true and logical that if these things could have taken place before our Lord Jesus came as a man like us to die as our substitute and pour out his Spirit and blood, then there would be no need for him to have died. Whatever was suffienct for those who lived before his cross would have been sufficient for those who lived after his cross. Following are three verses to consider:

    Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Here is a statement from the Old Testament to consider;

    Ex 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Getting saved is a New Testament proposition because OT saints were not cleared of their sins. There is only one thing that can wash away sins and that one thing is the blood of Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God cannot dwell where there is inherent sin. That is why the Spirit of God did not dwell in Adam, who BTW, was called the son of God (Lk 3:38) before his sin, but not afterward. The renewal of the Spirit of God to man is what must happen for a son of Adam to become the son of God. That can happen only after the sin stain is washed in the blood by the Spirit who enters in when a sinner repents and believes the gospel of Jesus Christ. The good news is that this is why he came. Now, the believers in his person and work not only have his righteousness, he is the righteousness that God requires and it has been proven in his life as a sinless man.The believers now have him in their bodies, but likewise are placed into his body, which did no unrighteous deed, and was resurrected from the dead, and our righteousness then becomes perfect before God, the righteousness of Christ surrounds us, who have believed in him. He has ascended bodily to heaven in his Father's house and we "sit together in heavenly places in Christ," according to that wonderful declaration in Eph 2:6.

    So, with this definition, there is no salvation, as it is defined in scriptures, in the Old Testament or previous to the sacrifice of our Wonderful Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. Additionally, there was no "church of Jesus Christ" in the Old testament because the church of Jesus Christ is built upon Jesus as the rock, the chief corner stone that was planted in the earth. There was no blood in the OT that could take away the sins of the nation Israel or the nations of the world. If the Spirit of God could have dwelt in these nations, giving them the life of God and his presence, before the work of Jesus Christ on behalf of man, then he could have dwelt in the sinful Adam and Romans 5:12 would have been written differently.

    Before someone says that no OT personage was a saint if this is true, let me quickly say that something in the mind of God was given as a substitute for the righteousness of Christ. It is the faith of anyone who will believe the words of God. The evidence of their believing was that they did what he said for them to do. For instance, God told Abraham to have relations with Sarah when he was 100 years old and Sarah was 90 years old and he would produce the promised son miraculously, the inability of these two to produce him by the power of their flesh serving as the prefiguring of the miraculous birth of Jesus Christ through a virgin. God counted, or imputed, his believing coupled with his obedience as righteousness and in this manner he justified him. That is God counted him not guilty of sin. God "justified him by his faith." But that did not clear him of his sin. A man who is judged by the highest judge in the universe can never ever be charged again with sin because he has been ruled "just." Who would be able to condemn him?

    Noah was justified but it was not by being told about the flood by God and to produce a son in his old age, but to build an ark, and thus save himself and his family. His obedience of building the ark proved his faith and God justified him, his continuing to live after all the others were dead picturing salvation..

    You might say obedience to what God says is not a way of justification in the New Testament, and you would be wrong. It is exactly true in the New Testament. I will give you a couple of examples in the context of the gospel, the good news, of God the Father. This includes the gospel of Christ but it is what the Father says, not what Jesus the Son says; Watch it:

    Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    What is the gospel of God? Is it him dying and being buried and rising again? Hardly, but here is how he defines it and it is instructive;

    Ro 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    25 Now to him (God the Father) that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (the gospel of God), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to ALL NATIONS for the obedience of faith:
    27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (the prayer here is that God the Father would get glory through Jesus Christ and the work he has done)

    Paul calls it "my gospel" because he was the special apostle to give this good news of God to the world.The other apostles were sent to the circumcision, Israel.

    The man who preaches a gospel that does not include the obedience of faith is preaching a false gospel and denying the gospel of God to the nations. It is that simple.

    I have made this post to set up later comments on the doctrine of predestination, that applys to a body and not a nation.

    7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
    8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
     
    #67 JD731, Mar 15, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,001
    Likes Received:
    2,396
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I learned a long time ago about the act of Biblical predestination... In four words and I don't worry about it... GOD IS IN CHARGE!... Carry on!... Brother Glen:)
     
    #67 tyndale1946, Mar 15, 2023
    • Like Like x 2
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Have you ever read the prayers of Paul, our apostle for us? I will quote just one of the three where he addresses what he desires for us; See what you think.

    Col 1:9 For this cause (the cause is stated in V 5 as the hope which is laid up for us in heaven by the gospel, which would be the inheritance) we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
    10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
    11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    What a prayer. Oh that God would answer it for every one of us.
     
    #68 JD731, Mar 15, 2023
    • Like Like x 2
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus extends His grace to those who ask Him for it. That's why He said "whoever believes' and "whoever will". Your calvinist junk isn't true.
     
    #69 robycop3, Mar 16, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Works salvation 101. Salvation by obeying the law of robycop.
    Saul of Tarsus never asked, robycop. Paul was an absolute hater, yet God saved him.
    You are adding the law and therefore rejecting grace at the same time.
     
    #70 AustinC, Mar 16, 2023
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,001
    Likes Received:
    2,396
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So then their is no difference between Nicodemus and Saul?... (Both were law keepers).... Brother Glen:)
     
    #71 tyndale1946, Mar 16, 2023
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,512
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Predestination defined.

    I would see and believe Calvinism is junk, if I read what is said by some opponents of it and written against it, on a Google search of contemporary 'bible teachers', etc.

    I post some 'misunderstandings about Authentic Calvinism', below, and also some defenses of it, by Jesus and the Bible (see next post on this thread).

    (My comments in blue).

    Posted first, are some statements from Confessions of Faith, like this one, from The Westminster Confession of Faith;

    "God has predestined and foreordained some men and angels to everlasting life out of His free grace and love without any foresight of faith or works in man..."

    Explanations of comments like these will follow;

    "    Authentic Calvinists not only believe that men have a natural liberty, but they also agree that men are responsible for their actions because of that natural liberty."

    "Human responsibility assumes natural ability, but it does not assume moral ability."

    "Total inability absolutely does not mean that men want to be saved, but they just cannot be because they are totally depraved."

    "Total inability means that nobody really wants to be saved apart from the grace of God working in their hearts."

    Unconditional Election Expressed

    "The Westminster Confession of Faith states,

    "God has predestined and foreordained some men and angels to everlasting life out of His free grace and love without any foresight of faith or works in man or perseverance in either of them, and others are foreordained to everlasting death and the number of either is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished." (Chap. III, art. 3,4 &5; Chap. X, art. 2)

    The Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. says,

    "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass … By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    "These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite it cannot be either increased or diminished." (Chap. III)

    "The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 says,

    "Those of mankind who are predestinated unto Life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable Purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ to everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto."

    "Calvin's Institutes states,

    "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

    "Predestination Defined

    "To understand predestination, one must understand the Greek word proorizo.

    "This Greek word is translated three different ways in the King James Version of the Bible: "predestinated," "ordained," "determined before."

    "It is translated "foreordained" in every occurrence in the American Standard Version of the Bible.

    "It means, "To limit or mark out beforehand; to design definitely beforehand, ordain beforehand, predestine." (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, p, 345)

    "It "…denotes to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 307)

    "A.T. Robertson says it means, "To define or decide beforehand." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 517)

    "A summary from Scripture reveals that predestination refers to Jehovah's creation of man and His determination beforehand of the conditions through which man might live with Him eternally.

    "It concerns the Father's predetermination that all people who meet His conditions would live eternally in heaven and all who refuse submission to those conditions would suffer eternal damnation."

    (Since, the God Who Runs Heaven is ETERNALLY HOLY, His "condition" is Perfect sinlessness, that is never found in man, but only in the Finished Work and Divine Person of the Savior, Jesus Christ, or in the person that has this the Finished Work and Divine Person of the Savior, Jesus Christ, credited to them, by God the Father, through the New Birth from the Holy Spirit.)

    The 1677/89 London Baptist Confession of Faith, chapter ix;

    Of Free Will.

    1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice; that it is
    (a) neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. a Mat. 17.12. Jam. 1 14. Deut. 30.19.

    3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost
    (d) all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,
    (e) and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to (f) convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.    d Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7.e Eph. 2.1.5.f Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44.

    "God’s Purpose of Grace

    "Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners.

    "It is consistent with the free agency of man, (see points 1, above) and comprehends all the means in connection with the end.

    "It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

    Salvation

    "Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord."

    (Continued in next post).
     
    #72 Alan Gross, Mar 16, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,512
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinists teach double Predestination!

    Here we Calvinists must avoid a snare. We must first ask our accusers, What do you mean by double predestination?

    "We may affirm double predestination and mean something by it that is much different and much better than what our accusers mean by it. So we must be careful.

    • It is certainly true that unconditional election means that when some are elected for salvation others are passed over and left to their just condemnation for their sins.
    • So (True!) the same election which chooses some for salvation leaves others in their sins. This is a kind of double predestination.
    • But if someone means by double predestination that people are predestined to hell regardless of their sins, then that is not true, and I know of no Calvinists who ever taught it.
    Predestination to hell is always in light of the sins of the creatures and therefore well-deserved.
    • And if someone means that some people are predestined to damnation in the same way that others are predestined to salvation, then they also are quite mistaken!
    • God intervenes in magnificent and multiple acts of grace in bringing the elect to salvation.
    • He simply leaves others to follow their own sinful desires so that their predestination to damnation is brought to pass."
    Calvinists do not believe in free will!

    "It certainly is true that Calvinists do not believe in what most people call (usually with a great deal of confusion) free will. (in their consideration of point 1, above, as if The Free Will of man includes "moral ability", whereas, in point 3, we see it does not).

    "Sometimes I have heard respectable Calvinists say that they believe in free agency rather than free will.

    "As for myself and many other Calvinists, we prefer to say that we believe in free will properly defined.

    "What is a proper and biblical definition of free will?

    "It is the one given in the 1689 Baptist Confession in chapter 9, paragraph

    1: “God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.”

    "Here free will is defined as the power of acting upon choice.

    "This is the natural liberty of the human. Such a view of free will is suggested by a number of texts:

    Matthew 17:12 "but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished (willed). So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

    James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."

    Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"

    "As I implied above, mankind still possesses this natural liberty or ‘free will.’

    "This is implied by an analysis of the outline of Chapter 9 of the Confession.

    It may be outlined as follows:

    I.The Definition of Human Freedom, par. 1

    II.The States of Human Freedom, par. 2-5

    A. Free will in the State of Innocency, par. 2

    B. Free Will in the State of Sin, par. 3

    C. Free Will in the State of Grace, par. 4

    D. Free Will in the State of Glory, par. 5

    The force of this outline is that paragraphs 2-5, including and especially paragraph 3, do not function as a negation of the definition of human freedom given in paragraph 1.

    "All of these paragraphs simply tell us the four states in which the natural liberty or free will of man may exist.

    "But, of course, mankind does not in the state of sin possess the spiritual or moral liberty to use his “free will” to choose what is right (Spiritually/"morally.)

    "His will is tied to his sinful nature so that he cannot will any spiritual good.

    "Thus, Jesus teaches in Matthew 7:17-18: “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.”

    "All this means that I agree with Walt Chantry that man’s will is free, yet bound. So it is not true to say that Calvinists do not believe in free will.

    Calvinists do not believe in human responsibility!

    "This assertion is also a slander on authentic Calvinism. Calvinists not only believe that men have a natural liberty, but they also agree that men are responsible for their actions because of that natural liberty.

    "The reason why Arminians claim that Calvinists deny human responsibility is that they have adopted what amounts to a Pelagian premise into their theology.

    "They believe that responsibility assumes ability.

    "The notion that responsibility for doing something assumes ability to do something is not true—if you are talking about moral ability.

    "The Bible in many places teaches that men cannot come to Christ, but it still holds them responsible to do so.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

    John 6:65 "And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

    I am in agreement with the great Calvinists Jonathan Edwards and Andrew Fuller (an anti-Monerganist) who made a distinction between natural and moral ability.

    "I think in making this distinction they are simply enlarging on what the Confession already teaches.

    "Human responsibility assumes natural ability, but it does not assume moral ability.

    "God does not tell us to run one minute miles. He does tell us to do things which He has given us the natural ability to do.

    "We are able to love and trust and be sorry. We have the natural ability to do such things.

    "But we do not have the moral ability to love and trust and be sorry about the right things (Spiritually or morally).

    "Thus, God tells us to do things that, because of sin, we do not have the moral ability to do.

    "John 5:40 rebukes the Jews precisely for not coming to Christ for salvation: “and you will not to come to Me so that you may have life.”


    Total inability means that, even though men want to be saved, they cannot be saved or come to Christ!

    Once more this is a total misunderstanding of the doctrines of total depravity and total inability.

    May I quote the Confession once more?

    "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

    "Total inability absolutely does not mean that men want to be saved, but they just cannot be because they are totally depraved.

    "Total inability consists in an indisposition of the will to any spiritual good.

    "It means that men are “averse” to good.

    "It means that “the cannot’s” of John 6 are a way of describing “the will not” of John 5:40: “and you will not come to Me so that you may have life.”

    "Total inability means that nobody really wants to be saved apart from the grace of God working in their hearts."
     
    #73 Alan Gross, Mar 16, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Man, you are filling up the thread with nonsensical irrelevance. Where can we go to get away from you? If we wanted to read books we would not be here. What is your purpose?
     
    #74 JD731, Mar 16, 2023
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To show you your error, JD.
     
    #75 AustinC, Mar 16, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 2
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is no difference between Nicodemus, Saul, and every human being. We are all law breakers, condemned as criminals, with no hope of reprieve and no desire to stop breaking the law. We are all spiritually dead. You cannot speak your way out of your dilemma by saying a sinners prayer. You cannot do penance and beat yourself into remorse. (Martin Luther tried that route)
    God must choose to make you alive and bring you to repentance. His Spirit must convict us of sin, even as Christians, or our flesh will not be repentant. We are desperately wicked people. We don't and we won't ever choose God on our own and even if we did, we would still be condemned. Jesus atonement must have been definitive for us.
     
    #76 AustinC, Mar 16, 2023
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I will post the second and last place in scripture that predestination is mentioned and as one can see there is an absence of Jewish names and OT references in this epistle. This is unlike the epistle to the Romans and the context where Paul dealt with predestination in a Jewish context. We expected to find those references and names where Jews are concerned. But this epistle is giving the purpose of God for this age and what he calls a dispensation in the context of gentiles.Obviously the OT scriptures would not be beneficial for this setting because gentiles would be unfamiliar with those scriptures. The explanation for gentiles must begin with the triune God and the importance of the work of each member of the Godhead and not from a historical and prophetical position as he did with the Jews. One must remember that gentiles have only been made partakers of the New Testament covenant blessings of God since 40 AD when the door of faith was opened to them by Peter. This was 10 years after he had opened the door of faith to the Jews in Acts 2. It is now 60 AD when this was penned.


    In this thread I will quote the first 14 verses and highlight the pronoun and their antecedents. It is easier to follow the logic when one does this. Each of the members of the Godhead have their own role in our salvation. I might intersperse a few brief comments along the way.Here we go:

    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God (the Father), to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who (God the Father) hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he (God the Father) hath chosen us in him (in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him (God the Father) in love:
    Verses 3-5 Is new information that has not been made known until here. The time space is between here and eternity past. Nothing between.

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (God the Father), according to the good pleasure of his (God the Father's) will,
    The predestination is not to be born again but to the adoption of children. Adoption and the new birth are not the same things.

    6 To the praise of the glory of his (God the Father's) grace, wherein he (God the Father) hath made us accepted in the beloved (Christ).
    7 In whom (Christ) we have redemption through his (Christ') blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his (God the Father's) grace;
    8 Wherein he (God the Father) hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his (God the Father's) will, according to his (God the Father's) good pleasure which he (God the Father) hath purposed in himself (God the Father):

    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he (God the Father) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him (In Christ):
    11 In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him (God the Father) who worketh all things after the counsel of his (God the Father's) own will:
    In V11 our predestination is clearly connected to the inheritance and the purpose of God that is raised in verse 9 and answered in verse 10 his will to gather and glorify all those in Christ, whether in heaven or earth, whether they are alive at the time or have died and their souls in heaven.

    12 That we should be to the praise of his (Christ') glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 In whom (Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (Christ) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which (the Spirit) is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his (the Spirit's) glory.

    This should help one see the truth here.The Godhead is intimately involved in our redemption and each have their own roles in it.

    Predestination is to glory to the praise of the glory of the trinity.

    1) 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (God the Father), according to the good pleasure of his (God the Father's) will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his (God the Father's) grace, wherein he (God the Father) hath made us accepted in the beloved (Christ).

    2) 12 That we should be to the praise of his (Christ') glory,

    3) 14 Which (the Spirit) is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his (the Spirit's) glory.

    "Glory" is the final state of our full salvation. It is predestined for the church.
     
    #77 JD731, Mar 16, 2023
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What we have here is a person with a pretext, interpreting the text, out of context as his prooftext for his pretext.

    The false presupposition leads to awful exegesis. Only a non-discerning person would ever agree to or like this awful attempt at manipulating God's word.
     
    #78 AustinC, Mar 16, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,512
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Question, there are those who say that the lost soul is not Predestinated to be Called, or Justified.

    They claim that the lost soul is "justified by works".

    And then that we will all be judged for our works by God after we die to see if we have a home in Heaven?

    Whether that is what they believe or not, just the part about being "justified by works", for salvation whenever it might come about, seems like it would be a very important matter.

    Important enough to pray about?

    That is the question.

    Have you ever heard of anyone that "prayed for Justification"?

    Or "help me work Lord, in a way that I can be Justified"?

    Have you ever "prayed for Justification"?

    ...
    Below is the topic of Justification that we say is Predestined, by God.

    My comments in blue.

    Adapted from:
    The 1677/89 London Baptist Confession of Faith, chapter 11.

    Justification.

    [​IMG]

    1. Those whom God Effectually calls, he also freely justifies,

    God gives His saved children Justification.

    Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    God Justifies His saved children, not by or because He gives them Righteousness,

    "...not by infusing Righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins,

    Romans 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    God Justifies the ungodly, because He pardons their sins,

    "...not because of "righteousness", like in the previous verse, where He informs us that those who;

    "...believe on him that justifies the ungodly,     his faith is counted for righteousness."

    Because, that Believing and Faith is the result of our sin being pardoned and our then being Justified, by him that justifieth the ungodly,

    "...as it is also true in t    he next verse where we do have righteousness Imputed to us;

    6 Even as David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    "...but, the reason God Justifies the ungodly, is because He pardons our sins, as we hear David;

    7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    God Justifies us because He has pardoned our sins by the blood of Jesus and it is then with our soul being in Christ that we, as saved Persons have become Righteous,

    "...and by accounting, and accepting their Persons as Righteous;

    "...by accounting, and accepting the saved soul's Person as they are NOW "IN CHRIST", as Righteousness,

    ... it is now THEIR PERSON that is in CHRIST, that is accounted and accepted for their Righteousness;)

    1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    31 That, according as it is written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord.

    Romans 5:17-19 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    There is no evangelical obedience of "having faith" or "believing", that is accounted or credited for the saved soul's Righteousness as the way they obtain their Righteousness before God;

    "not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone,

    ...so, their Righteousness then is;

    "...not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their Righteousness;

    (or, in other words, by adding the word "works" and for clarity,

    "...not by imputing the evangelical obedient "work" of     faith itself    , as their Righteousness;

    ...and not by imputing the evangelical obedient "work" in the act of believing,

    ...or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their Righteousness;), but because;

    Philippians 3:8-9 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,     but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    "...so, a saved soul is accounted Righteous, by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole Law, and passive obedience in his death, to them, who are now saved souls, and;

    "...for their whole and sole Righteousness, they receive, and rest on him, and His Righteousness, by Faith,

    ...during the remainder of their lives,
    as they continue on to live by faith and "reign in life by one, Jesus Christ".

    Having been Justified, because their sins were Pardoned, God places in their soul the Perfect Righteous life Jesus lived out under the law, into their soul,

    And their soul has also received the gift of righteousness, while at the same time, because they have been Pardoned and Justified, they are accounted Righteous, having been given the gift of Imputed Righteousness,

    ... and, all at the same time, given the combined gift of Repentance and Faith to Believe, which is the Eternal Salvation of the soul, in The Spiritual Regeneration of the New Birth,

    "...which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
     
    #79 Alan Gross, Mar 16, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Thank you for that AustinC. I hope everyone who reads this appreciates the time you took to prepare a rebuttal for my so called presupposition.

    One thing I did not mention in my previous post that should be noted and receive some attention is the fact that "foreknowledge" is not mentioned in Ephesians. Paul does not say the gentiles were foreknown of God. When investigating the term foreknow, foreknown, foreknowledge, foreknew in the contexts of scriptures where these terms are used, we understand that they mean simply, "known before." So, as Paul deals with gentiles and explains the present workings of God on the basis that he did not know them beforehand as he did the Jews when he dealt with this time frame in Romans as this Ephesian epistle will continue to make perfectly clear and will state it succinctly in chapter 2, which I will quote presently.

    But for now, let's look at foreknowledge as it applies in context. For that to register correctly in our minds we MUST accept that the New Testament is different from the Old Testament in terms of time frame. Paul used words like "this present time," and "time past," and "times past," and "now," and "ages to come," and "the dispensation of the fulness of times." In the following verses the division of time as it applies to the the old and new testaments are evident.

    Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    So here we go:

    God said the following in context of Jews and Israel his people;

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Paul is not speaking here of individuals. Look at the pronouns. If they are predestinated to the image of Jesus Christ, the whole will have to be predestinated to be glorified as one. That was the intention of God for all Israel. See my quote of 2 Cor 3 in it's entirety at the end of this post. At this point only a small remnant believed in Christ.

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Only children of God can hope to be glorified but they must wait for all the children to be born so they may be all glorified together at one time. This is the reason for predestination. Think about joint heirs with Christ. If we all are joint heirs then we must all be together to receive the inheritance. God is not coming down to earth to give us our inheritance, we are going to heaven where he is to receive it.

    Ro 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

    This is the context in Romans. It is those who had labored under the law of Moses as an operative principle of divine government. This is the context through Rom 11 with gentiles entering the conversation in Rom 11:13.

    Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    In the following segment Paul bemoans the fact that Israel, the people of his flesh, have not obeyed the gospel by believing it from Acts 2 to Romans 11 even after having it preached to them for these 28 years at this present time, as he calls it.

    16 But they (Israel) have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    Think gentiles here.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

    Think about a father holding out his arms and asking his son to come to him. So much for the awful doctrine of sovereignty in the affairs of men.

    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Pay attention to the definition given clearly by God in his Bible for who he foreknew.

    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

    Israel is defined as the physical seed of Abraham
    God's people
    Israel
    A member of one of the 12 tribes of Israel
    Foreknown.
    The apostle Paul in the present tense, "I am an Israelite" in 58 AD.

    This is 28 years after the beginning of the church.
    This is 18 years after the inclusion of the gentiles, marked as the beginning of the dispensation of the grace of God.
    This is 9 years after Paul wrote Galatians, where he said the following:

    Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s (spiritual) seed, and heirs according to the promise. (inheritance)

    Because Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham and we are "in him."

    These passages do not conflict but one must have discernment from God and one must study the scriptures to show himself approved of God.

    I hope this helps my Baptist brethren because the Protestants have led them astray by false doctrine.

    1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or [letters] of commendation from you?
    2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
    4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
    12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
    17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
     
    #80 JD731, Mar 17, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
Page 4 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...