The water and the spirit.John 3:5 What is the water?

Yelsew, Did you ever think nicodemus was playing nieve?.

Wasnt He a ruler within the Pharisee party?.
Were not these guys foretold that Jesus was the man that was chosen to be sacrificed?.
They knew that one needed to be sacrificed. They read it in their OT, as well as the High Priest receiving a vision from God himself.

yet the truth (understanding) was hidden from Nicodemus as well as all Pharisees hearts. He as well as all Pharisees had murder in their hearts waiting for the moment to strike.

Nicodemus is the perfect candidate for this message. The truth will set you free. or in another tense. the truth will kill your evil ways. notice what Jesus tells nicodemus...

right over nicodemus's head

the law is slowely at work here though. but it first must enter into the conditioned heart of nicodemus.
for his heart is what has to be convicted. not his carnal mind. the word that nicodemus receives must be annointed and prepared for him to receive it.
Unfortunately his heart is cursed at the moment.
He must receive a new heart to accept and respond to its teachings.

water represents truth. yet truth must enter into the heart. into a properly conditioned spirit.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Me2

 

Do you think that in this early stage of Jesus ministry the Religious leaders of Israel had already determined that Jesus was an enemy and the He would be the one they kill? Give us a break Me2. That did not happen until late in the 3 to 3 1/2 years of Jesus active ministry, while this discourse with Nicodemus happened fairly early.

Did you ever think that Nicodemus may have liked what He heard from Jesus, but simply did not understand because it was radically different than what the High Priest was saying?

Ah sweet mystery and intrigue, You watch a lot of television? This plot is on every night, but they didn't have TV in Nicodemus' day. Remember this discourse is during the early part of Jesus' Ministry.

How can this be if Nicodemus is the conniving, sinister, master of intrigue you described him to be?

The words of Jesus are not annointed enough for you?

You still fail to grasp that "Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God"...WHY IS THAT?

Perhaps in other scriptures water does represent truth, Me2, but not here in John 3. Why cant you see that?

 

Once again you divert from the scripture of John 3:1-21. I posted it for you and emphasized text that clearly ties thoughts together. Stick with John 3, concentrate on John 3. Don't bring in Paul, Apollos, or any other teacher. Stick with the Master teacher. His lesson is the prerequisite to Salvation 101. His lesson defines the conditions in which Salvation is possible. Natural life first, Spiritual life next. Natural human life is not possible without a spirit, and Human spiritual life is not possible without a body of flesh to live in.

If you don't agree with that, then you are going to have to take it up with God, cause that's the way he made it!

 

Yelsew,

we have not diverted from the interpretations that we have rendered. nor have you.

there is a literal interpretation and an allegorical interpretation.

why cant you simply agree to see that there is such?
and glean what you can from both interpretations?

 

Yelsew,

heres something to ponder while viewing nicodemus.

you keep insisting that faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God.

the word of God is spirit. and power.

God speaks to our heart or in this case our spirit.
Yet our spirit must be regenerated or conditioned to accept this wisdom. what is this power. it is the power to defeat error. it is "truth".

the truth that God speaks to our regenerated hearts is that Jesus Christ has defeated all powers against man and that God today seeks reconciliation by giving us his free gift of his Spirit. Joining forever his creation with himself.

How is our heart to be regenerated?. we must humble ourselves by accepting the authority of God over our will. over our life. as you continually state. we must have faith. that his truth does defeat all error.

You say that the word of God is annointed. yet do you realize that we must believe that God IS and this is HIS Annointed word to US.

this is what Nicodemus isnt Grasping. That Jesus is the Son of God. He Is THE Authority over the jewish people. and nicodemus only sees another man. born under the curse of God. unable to even save himself. a greater teacher that nicodemus can only glean more wisdom from.

unfortunately Nicodemus doesnt understand that Jesus is the true wisdom and the Only Revelation of the Truth of God. he is

 

Baptism, perhaps? At least that's how the early Christians interpreted it.

 

Herc,

Im understanding everything your posting.

we are born of truth. of the knowledge of Good and evil. of the law. of Gods word.

water represents truth. it represents Gods wisdom.

this "water" towards the carnal man means death.

this "water" towards the spirit man means life eternal.

yet it is still the same water. the same truth.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

All anyone has to do was to read the next chapter.

the woman at the well Got it! but poor ole nicodemus was still dumbstruck.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].

Me2

 

WOW! I'm impressed! You get all of that from John 3:1-21?

You are simply amazing! The space between the lines in my bible(s), and I have nearly every available version, 13 editions in hardbound, and 23 versions in electronic form, do not open up and reveal all that you say is there. You must be getting help from other men who, like you, don't want to accept the plain truth revealed in scripture! You are so busy looking for the "hidden meaning" that you cannot see the truth! No wonder Jesus says to "suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such as these are the children of heaven" (paraphrase) That is why I will not be surprised at those who don't show up in heaven.

 

Baptism, perhaps? At least that's how the early Christians interpreted it. </font>[/QUOTE]If baptism, can you prove it by the context of verses John 3:1-21? I refer you to Matthew 28, end of Chapter where Jesus tells his disciples to Go into all the world making disciples, Baptising them IN THE NAME OF the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Why didn't he tell Nicodemus that? Jesus obviously knew it, and he obviously knew that Nicodemus did not! The only baptism that Nicodemus knew of was John's baptism of National repentance in preparation for the coming Messiah! A fulfillment of Prophesy by the way!

No, I think one has to rule out the water in John 3 as being baptism. The Context does not support baptism anyway.

 

I challenge you to demonstrate that allegory was the normal form of communication among Jews when Jesus was here among them. To do that, you must produce secular documents from that age that are standard written communication for the peoples of Israel and especially Jerusalem. If you can do so, then you may have a position from which you can demand that I too must communicate in allegory. Until you can do that, you must stop insisting that the words that Jesus used in his discussion with Nicodemus are allegorical.

You see the words that Jesus used are pure gold, and you insist on digging well beyond the gold. All that gets you is a deep hole that you can't get out of!

 

Different scenarios, different words, different meaning. Jesus was not telling Nicodemus to "come unto me and I will quench your thirst", He was answering Nicodemus' question

So to equate this with the woman at the well is simply "wrongly dividing the word of truth". And doing so is diverting from the truth!

 

Well, verse 22 states:
"After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.". References to Jesus and His disciples baptizing are made throughout the rest of the chapter and the first couple of verses in ch.4.

I don't know--perhaps for the same reason that he didn't straighten out the confusion that many of His followers had over "eating His flesh" in John 6. Many walked with Him no more after that because it was a "hard saying", yet we don't see Jesus running after them clarifying what He meant. Also, don't forget that Jesus spoke to everyone in parables while explaining the meaning to His closest disciples.

That's interesting, because earlier in John's Gospel the Pharisees asked John the Baptist: "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" (John 1:24) So apparently there was some idea among the Pharisees, of which Nicodemus was one, that baptism was somehow to be connected with the Christ. I'm sure Jesus was aware of this belief and could refer to it (without spelling it out) in his conversation with Nicodemus.

Again, I refer you to the verses immediately following v.21.

 

verse 21 and beyond are not Jesus having a discussion with Nicodemus. Verse 22 begins a new scenario and context!

The Pharisee's knowledge of the Christ is that there is to be a Christ, but not who it is that is the Christ. I'm sure that Jesus did not go by the name Christ. He did not walk up to people and introduce himself,"Hi, I'm Jesus Christ, the long awaited Messiah". It was not until the end of his ministry that his identity as "the Christ" was revealed. So, it is a logical question the Pharisees asked of John. They knew the prophesy!

You make a good point about the parables, but Jesus did not always speak in Parables, look at the sermon on the mount. Clear, plain, concise normal language, spoken to a multitude. They were all enthralled by what he told them. Amazed at the Authority with which this lowly carpenter's son spoke, and the did not want him to stop.

 

Herc,
Again, you divert from Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus. You are afraid to face the truth because it refutes you false understandings of God and man.