The weak foundation of free will

Well, this is how ELSE you can say it (see above). This is NOT the same thing you said earlier. What you said earlier is essentially "If man is unable to respond to the Gospel, then what is the point of God hardening his heart?" Obviously there is no point in your new view, because man has already passed the point of no return when he hardens his own heart.

Don't you see that what you say above contradicts your earlier view that man is capable of responding to the Gospel unless God hardens his heart? Now you are saying that man hardens his own heart, which is what makes him unable to respond to the Gospel. God simply hardens it more after the fact.

But that contradicts your earlier view that "If man is unable to respond to the Gospel, then what is the point of God hardening his heart?" If man hardens his own heart so that he has made his "choice" and is no longer able to respond to the Gospel, then your question is moot. God hardening his heart has nothing to do with him not being able to respond to the Gospel because man has already "passed his chance" as YOU say.

So your question "If we are unable to respond to the Gospel, then why does God have to harden man's heart?" no longer makes any sense. Obviously, God doesn't have to do that because (again, as YOU say), man has already gone past the point of no return by hardening his own heart. Your premise falls once again.

It is so obvious that your premise is flawed, dead, buried, and rotted that I am amazed you are still trying to prop up its festering corpse and pretend it's alive. </font>[/QUOTE]I must not be able to communicate this too well. What I am trying to say is that God's word does indeed harden hearts. Just as it softens. It is God who speaks and says repent, believe and the heart accepts or rejects. So God saying I will harden thier hearts is no different then saying, they will harden thier hearts against my word. It is God's word, the rejection of it is a sign of the hardening of the heart.

The only thing that is really rotting seems to be your calvinistic theology. It does blind, it blinds to the truths of the gospel, it blinds to common sense and logic, it blinds too the love of Christ.

 

sigh, let me say again the hardening is against G
od's word. Phoaroh harden his heart against God's word, the more God spoke the harder it got. Now it is no different today for the white knuckled person hanging on to the pew refusing to yeild to the convicition of God's word. It will no longer softend but harden if that person does not yeild.
All scriptures screams free will, your theology tries to make God the author, cause or director of sin. That is what is clear.

Let me add you are the first calvinist, in over two years, since I have been debating this on boards, not to be able to comprehend the statement I am making about God's word hardening hearts.

 

There are some points in the opening post which need to be pointed out. When npetreley is discussing the words such as 'all', he then tries to modify the meaning in his examples by adding a prepositional phrase: "of...." So all of the citizens of New Jersey is obviously not all the people in the world. But it should be noted that the Bible does not qualify the word 'one' in "But He is not willing that one should perish." "One" there clearly means anyone, anytime, anywhere. There is no qualification in the passage.

"Whosoever" is not qualified by a prepositional phrase limiting it in John 3:16.

While Calvinists add implicit meanings to phrases like these, they cut out phrases and meanings in other passages to support their claims. For instance, the opening post contains this quote:
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Calvinists tend to stop with "he also predestined" and say "see? He predestined some!" But that is not what that passage is saying. First of all, it starts in verse 28 with those who love the Lord. Then it states that those whom God foreknew He predestined to an end: to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. All believers are predestined to that end and Phil. 1:6 tells us that no one will be left half-done, but that God is faithful to finish the good work He began.

The same thing is done by Calvinists in Ephesians 1. Verse 4, for instance, is often chopped in their argument. They will quote the first part -- For he chose us in him before the creation of the world -- and ignore what the passage is saying with its completion: TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT. We were not chosen to be believers, but we believers were chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight! There is a difference there!

The letter is written to "the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Jesus Christ". In verse 5 of chapter 1 it does not say simply "he predestined us", but that we, who are the faithful in Jesus Christ, are predestined to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ.

The predestination passages are all like this: those who choose to believe are predestined to have something accomplished in and through them. But none were ever predestined to be believers, even though God knew -- since He is outside of time -- what all choices would be.

When God told Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart, the story of the plagues makes it extremely clear that the Pharaoh hardens his own heart first. In fact, after plague 5 (I think it was) it says Pharaoh repented of his hard heart, but then he AND his court harden themselves again and after that, that's it. "You want it? You got it!" -- and God, knowing they would do this, finishes the job, just as He told Moses He would.

God will use every person regardless of the person's choice. Christ's betrayer was doomed to destruction. Judas CHOSE to be that person.

"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a real command involving a real choice. "Come, let us reason together" is a real invitation from God to people who are unsaved but can really hear it.

God's anger is being poured out on those who suppress the truth because they can really see the truth and recognize it as the truth and yet reject it.

If you check all the Bible stories, you will find that God never preempts man's free choices, but warns about them and knows about them, but also respects them. This makes Him no less omnipotent or magnificent -- it rather makes Him far more so than our minds can understand.

Jesus came to seek that which was lost. They would not have been lost had they been predestined to salvation from before time!

 

As people have pointed out a gazillion times, God commands people to obey the law knowing full well that people are unable to obey it. Paul points this out repeatedly in the NT.

So just because God commands something does NOT mean that people are able to comply of their own free will. Your proof texts prove nothing. </font>[/QUOTE]This is the biggest lie found in calvinism. You are saying that the Holy, just and fair God we read about throughout the Bible, and especially Psalms, would do something like this? Hardly. This would be like putting only a tuna sandwich in front of you and telling you if you choose the roast beef, you will live. This is not the god I serve.

As far as not being able to obey the law, the story of the rich young ruler refutes this. This man did obey the law, and he was not saved when he left Jesus.

 

If that helped you Tim you would jump on me like a ton of bricks.

You still trying to seperate God from His word? He says He will harden a man's heart not as you say the man hardens it.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

There is God telling Moses to command Pharaoh to set the people free but He tells Moses He, God, not the man, will harden the man's heart so that he will not obey. He not only tells us what to do but hinders those He chooses to hinder whether you like it or not.

Pharaoh wasn't even allowed the oppotunity to use his common sense which, under cause and effect, would have affected the outcome in a better manner for him but he was to be a demonstration of God's Sovereign power. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Rom 9:17.
The thing you argue against God thinks brings Him glory. HaHa! That He might display His power. Pharaoh was a revelation.

Got you ain't he? You are desperately white knuckling God's word hardening hearts that you have forgotten, ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. He hardens. Do you comprehend that?


john.

 

You keep on about choice don't you webdog? Your analogy is wrong.

DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

That is not true is it? A man can keep the law and go to Hell is unscriptural because God says, EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

The only other way into Heaven. Be perfect and your past sins are forgotten with no blood paid. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

john.

 

Deu 5:29 (LORD speaking) If only they had such a heart to fear Me and keep all My commands, so that they and their children will prosper forever.
Your exegesis of the text you quote would make God out to be bipolar compared to what He says in 5:29. I don't believe God could say "why don't you follow Me" in one breath and turn around and say "I didn't let you follow Me." So what did God mean in context?

Yes it is.

Mat 19:16 Just then someone came up and asked Him, "Teacher, what good must I do to have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 "Why do you ask Me about what is good?" He said to him. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 "Which ones?" he asked Him. Jesus answered, Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness;
Mat 19:19 honor your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 19:20 "I have kept all these," the young man told Him. "What do I still lack?"
Mat 19:21 "If you want to be perfect," Jesus said to him, "go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."
Johnp, you are arguing points I am not making. My reply that a lost person can keep the law was in response to this false statement from npetreley...

[ February 28, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

If that helped you Tim you would jump on me like a ton of bricks.

You still trying to seperate God from His word? He says He will harden a man's heart not as you say the man hardens it.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

There is God telling Moses to command Pharaoh to set the people free but He tells Moses He, God, not the man, will harden the man's heart so that he will not obey. He not only tells us what to do but hinders those He chooses to hinder whether you like it or not.

Pharaoh wasn't even allowed the oppotunity to use his common sense which, under cause and effect, would have affected the outcome in a better manner for him but he was to be a demonstration of God's Sovereign power. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Rom 9:17.
The thing you argue against God thinks brings Him glory. HaHa! That He might display His power. Pharaoh was a revelation.

Got you ain't he? You are desperately white knuckling God's word hardening hearts that you have forgotten, ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. He hardens. Do you comprehend that?


john. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely not, Johnp. I am just wondering about comprehension level for the two of you rign now. That is all. The fact that you say I am trying to seperate God from His word when in fact I am trying to do the OPPOOSITE shows you two are not even reading the post. Your thought and logic cannot go outside the bounds of calvin's teaching. That is all that has "gotten" me. I have shown you to be totally incoherent in your love, hate theology that you have never recovered. When shown you get crazier.

 

You keep on about choice don't you webdog? Your analogy is wrong.

DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

That is not true is it? A man can keep the law and go to Hell is unscriptural because God says, EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

The only other way into Heaven. Be perfect and your past sins are forgotten with no blood paid. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]It is abysmally ridiculous to believe that God would ever command a man to do that which it was impossible for him to do. Of course a man, whether he is saved or not, can obey the Law if he so chooses. A very good example of such a man was Saul of Tarsus.

Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

And of course the fact that it was possible for a man to obey God and His commandments raised the question in the minds of many regarding the doctrine of the atonement of Christ and related doctrines that teach that faith in Christ and His death on the cross is the only means of salvation. But we find the answer to this question in the Old Testament.

Between the time when Adam first sinned and the giving of the Law, people died even though sin is not imputed when there is no law forbidding it. Therefore, we know that something other than their personal behavior caused them to die. And in Rom. 5:12 Paul tells us what that was, they had sinned in Adam, and Paul then defends his teaching in the remainder of the chapter:

12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB, 1995)

All men have sinned in Adam, and therefore even those who keep the Law need a savior, and the only Savior that God has provided is the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

Hello Tim.

Got you ain't he?

Absolutely?

If you mean rign now then it is at quite a low ebb old chap.
I take it the two of us includes npetreley? It is an honour for me to be associated with him, I'm not so sure he would approve though.

Really? You amaze me. Look, take it less seriously man, understanding comes from the Lord not your keyboard nor mine. Relax. I don't really like the idea of a man thinking so much about me, it gives me the creeps. Think about something else man, please.

What? The opposite you say? Seperate the word of God from God you mean? How's me comprehension?
What you were doing was you were trying to change the truth that it is God that hardens man. You are saying that it is His word that hardens man. This begs the question of why God speaks to those He is going to make worse if He does speak to them.
He does not say it is His word but Himself, ...I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Ex 4:21.

Strange how we are always using scripture isn't it?

Cool man.

What this then but another cause of concern for my comprehension? How can you show a totally incoherent person anything? Why should you try? What is the love, hate theology that I have failed to recover? When did I lose it?

Cool man, and now for the dizzy heights of the moral high ground. PS 134:3 May the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth, bless you from Zion.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Mat 19:20 "I have kept all these," the young man told Him.

You take a young man's self-righteous opinion of himself and call that proof? If in fact he had kept 'all these', meaning he was righteous according to the law, then he lacked nothing.

In fact the first thing to notice is that rather than love God and follow Him he loved money which destroys his claim to having loved God with his whole being in the first place.

john.

 

Hello Craig.

We have an Abysmally ridiculous God then.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

You deny scripture.

EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

RO 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."

No sacrifice is necessary. "The man who does these things will live by them."

john.

 

What? The opposite you say? Seperate the word of God from God you mean? How's me comprehension?
What you were doing was you were trying to change the truth that it is God that hardens man. You are saying that it is His word that hardens man. This begs the question of why God speaks to those He is going to make worse if He does speak to them.

I knew you would come back with this statement, I really did. It truely is amazing the mind of followers of calvinist. It is because He is speaking truth and He is God. All the time showing Phoaroh and others that HE is God, yet you would have Him stop because man's heart becomes harden from rejecting Him. No, God speaks men accept or reject. If they are too continuely reject God and truth thier hearts must be harden. Okay kids.

 

There is nothing in the Biblical text here to suggest that the man had not kept the Law to the letter. Jesus, however, tells this man to do something beyond the requirements of the Law, something that he did not want to do.

 

We have an Abysmally ridiculous God then.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

You deny scripture.

EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

RO 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."

No sacrifice is necessary. "The man who does these things will live by them."

john. </font>[/QUOTE]In Rom. 10:5 Paul is apparently referring to Lev. 18:5,

Lev. 18:5. ‘So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.’ (NASB, 1995)

Neither Ezek. 18:21 nor Lev. 18:5 say anything at all about salvation or eternal life. Let’s not try to force the Scriptures to fit our fancy.

And please explain how, by quoting the New Testament, I am “denying Scripture.”

 

Actually, Craig, it was not beyond the law, but the foundation of it, or one of the two foundations: you shall love your neighbor as yoruself.

johnp, you are missing the purpose of the law:
"Indeed, I would not have known what sin was except through the law." The law shows us what sin is. The point Jesus was making is that it is impossible for man to keep the law perfectly. So He did it. And that is one reason why it is only through Him we are saved.

Your quote from Ezekiel is not applicable in terms of salvation, for Ezekiel was writing during the last days of the theocracy of Israel and he was talking about physical life and physical death in their legal system. Later, in the New Testament, Paul picks up on this theme even after the days of the theocracy. Disobedience to the Lord's principles in the matter of Holy Communion can cause sickness or death -- physical death, not spiritual death: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. for anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you havce fallen asleep." (1 Cor. 11:28-30) In verse 32 Paul makes sure that it is not spiritual death he is speaking of: "When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

As far as Pharaoh is concerned, it is you who are ignoring Scripture,

Ex. 8:15 (after the first plague) -- But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Ex. 8:19 (after the second plague) -- The magicians said to Pharaoh, 'This is the finger of God.' But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said.

Ex. 8:32 (after the third plague) -- But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Ex. 9:7 (after the fourth plague) -- Pharaoh sent men to investigate and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

Ex. 9:12 (after the fifth plague) -- But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Ex. 9:27, 33-35 (after the sixth plague) -- Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The Lord is in the right and I and my people are in the wrong."...Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the Lord; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said through Moses.

It is only after this vascillation on Pharaoh's part that we read consistently that the Lord hardened his heart. But if the Lord was responsible for hardening from the start, it would have been impossible for Pharaoh to have admitted that he had sinned and appeared to have been repenting. But that is exactly what he did.

What we see here is someone who came face to face with God's power and commands and at first resisted, then seemed to soften and admit he sinned, and then finally rebel against that and against God totally. Exodus makes it very clear that Pharaoh was operating according to his own clear choice until the point of no return, which the Lord, being outside of time, knew would happen, and told Moses about it to begin with. But that did not negate Pharaoh's ability to make that choice freely. And Exodus shows us that that is exactly what happened.

 

Hello Craig.

...and therefore even those who keep the Law need a savior... No one ever said that a Saviour is necessary for the righteous. Show the scripture. The righteous need no Saviour as God says He will forget the former sins if a man keeps the law. Simple as that. EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
Lev. 18:5. ‘So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.’ (NASB, 1995)

What do you mean? Why do you want to change 'a man will live' to 'a man will not live'? If a man follows God's law he will not die for the wages of sin is death and when one has no sin he cannot die as he has no wages.

We have an Abysmally ridiculous God then. Do you cede the point?

john.