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Featured The Will of God in the Fall of Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Actually it's more than definitions but bait-and-switch; somehow God instructing Adam that He MUST/MAY not eat of a fruit becomes Adam may eat of the same. Equivocation at work here where may is given two meanings in one sentence

    Thank you @TCassidy! On this we are in agreement. May/must not means God's will is do not
    So when somebody says God meant they may eat of the fruit, they really mean God meant exact opposite of His instructions!
    Agreed. God's Will is simply His intent, purpose, and we can discern this from what He says. Here is the point; if somebody believes that all that comes to pass MUST have been decreed by God, and nothing comes to pass except it was decreed, then the Fall must have been decreed, right?

    And if the Fall was decreed, then God's intent was that Adam may eat while His words were 'do not eat'. This is another notion that we have disabused right here namely; God does not DECREE everything that comes to pass, else He is the Author of all that comes to pass including sin and evil

    120% true, and we are in agreement sir!

    I love your simple and concise analogies.
    Point is foreknowledge does not equate to authorship. God foreknew man would fall but He never caused the Fall.

    One may reason that if God foreknew there would be evil and He went ahead and created man and angels that He is somewhat responsible for not avoiding it. But who said God is morally responsible for preventing evil? To whom is He responsible?

    The free rational agents remain the authors of sin. If the only free agent is God, then He is totally responsible for our actions.

    Look sir, I know this is sounding repetitive but the idea that men are not really free given God immutably and irresistibly controls their very thoughts and intents is central to John Calvin theology ( not necessarily Calvinism)
     
    #141 rigz, Apr 24, 2016
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If it was such a minor point, why did you bring it up?

    Agedman is a, well, aged man. I am past 70 and agedman is even older than I am. Sometimes gentlemen of our advanced maturity tend to "meander all over" on occasion. Just write it off to our advanced age, and forgive us our lack of laser-like focus.

    1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren. :)

    And the point of the question? There had to be a reason for you to ask "who has stated unequivocally that God does irresistibly and immutably author every thought and intent of man?"

    I agree. The fall did not take God by surprise. He had a plan in place. He knew how Adam would respond and God was ready. He had decreed before the foundation of the word that Christ would come and die for the sins of Adam (and the rest of us) and expunge the terrible consequence of Adam's sin.

    But because God knew, and had prepared a plan, does not in any way imply He was responsible for Adam's sin. :)
     
    #142 TCassidy, Apr 24, 2016
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You aren't Jesus. :)
     
    #143 TCassidy, Apr 24, 2016
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Well then...why post? If they're futile...butt out. No one is twisting your arm, youse nose?
     
    #144 SovereignGrace, Apr 24, 2016
  5. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Because his response was not clear to me

    Well, profuse apologies sir, but please understand I have no way of telling your age by your moniker or even avatar

    Please, when you go back to the OP, I mentioned the meme. There are some who are highly persuaded that God's sovereignty is defined by Him controlling irresistibly every thought and intent of all creatures thereby controlling all their actions and events. I was coming from this point, and I picked the Fall. If God controls all events, then He caused the Fall, and if He caused the Fall, He authored the thoughts and intents leading to the fall precisely at that particular point. The question was how God would author rebellion against Himself and then punish humanity for it all the while warning against it?

    Amen!
    Foreknowledge is not equal to Authorship.
    Even further God incorporating evil and sin into His plan does not mean He authored it.

    There is a quote by Calvin that I quoted. He insisted that not only did God allow the Fall, He caused it. I'm certain this sounds preposterous to you, right?

    It is preposterous but there are many who still cling to this flawed thinking sir.
     
    #145 rigz, Apr 24, 2016
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Not one of my definitions could be construed by an honest man to be "bait-and-switch." I provided exactly what you asked for. A concise definition of the decretive and permissive will of God.

    And nowhere did I say or imply that God gave Adam permission to eat. He permitted Adam to follow his own desires rather than following the desires of His Creator.

    And in case you were unaware of it "may" has two definitions: may, 1. expressing possibility. "that may be true"
    2. expressing permission.

    It appears to me you have deliberately conflated or confused the two.

    Again you are displaying a disappointing lack of sincerity. Nobody. Nobody has made such a statement. Nobody.

    Nobody believes that as you have been told again and again.

    It wasn't, as you have been told over and over and over. What was decreed was God's response to the fall.
    Yes, your willing mischaracterization is getting repetitive. Nobody has said or suggested God "irresistibly controls their very thoughts and intents" and such has absolutely nothing at all to do with Calvin or anyone else.

    So, as nothing useful is forthcoming. This thread is closed.

    (I tried. I really did.)
     
    #146 TCassidy, Apr 24, 2016
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