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The Winter Festival

David Kent

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From the previous thread
What! The RCC invented the birth of Christ?
No the pope said he had discovered the date of Christ's birth and made it into a RC festival. Even in the US in the late 19th the century it was considered a papal trivia in much of New England and other parts of US until the Catholics from Italy and Ireland poured in according to an American woman on our local radio.

Where in the bible does it tell us when Jesus was born?

Where in the bible does it tell us to celebrate his birth as a festival?

There were only two birthdays mentioned in scripture and they both resulted in someone losing their heads.

Who celebrates Christmas? All the world.

Tertullian said the pagans were faithful to their festivals. It is a pity that Christians are not.

None of which we should not mention Christ's birth, but at any time of the year.

Jesus was probably born in the autumn, not winter.
 

liafailrock

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I agree with all your points here. The bible nowhere tells us the exact date of his birth, and maybe deliberately hidden just so that we don't make it a celebration. However, as you said, it can be deduced that it was sometime autumn (or late summer if we're talking September). The hints I believe he bible gives are in 3 areas:

1) The priest Zachariahs was of the course of Abijah. Since we know the approximate year Christ was born, we know about what time of the year that course ran.
2) Jesus was thirty when he began his ministry (same age as the service of the priests), and a statement alluding to Elijah and the famine seemed to foretell a time when Israel was blinded for 3.5 years when the Messiah was present. That made him 33.5 years old when dying for our sins in the spring time thus being born in the autumn.
3) Although this is more controversial, it is somewhat obvious to folks like me into times and seasons. Revelation 12:1, besides the normal symbolism, doubles up describing an astronomical position. There's only one zodiac constellation that is a woman, and that's Virgo. The moon under her feet is a new, crescent moon which happens at the feast of Trumpets (an early autumn festival).

As the bible says, two or three witnesses establish a matter, but even at that, it does not point out an exact day or year, just a general season. Some Christians believe he came at the feast of Tabernacles, alluding to a passage in John where he "tabernacled" amongst us. That does not bother me since we are only mincing over 2 weeks apart.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
So the only reason to complain about Christians celebrating Christ's birth on December 25 is superstition because that date is just as good as any?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Where in the bible does it tell us when Jesus was born?
I'm glad you asked. Keep reading.

Jesus was probably born in the autumn, not winter.
Ummmm. Uh, well, NO! :)


WHAT ABOUT DECEMBER 25th? COULD JESUS HAVE BEEN BORN ON "CHRISTMAS" DAY?

DON'T JUST REJECT IT, BUT FIRST, THINK ABOUT IT.

Today it is popular for preachers and teachers to dispel the "myths" of Christmas. It makes for great sensationalism but not for great reason or accuracy. There are several aspects of the traditional Christmas story that are under fire. While no one can positively set the exact time and scene of the first Christmas there is no biblical necessity for s****ping the biggest majority of our traditional understanding of these events.

I. Jesus could easily have been born on December 25.

The traditional date of December 25 for Christmas may well be in the proper time frame even if it is not perfectly correct. It has been the date commemorated for almost 1800 years.

Edersheim wrote, "There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable."

"The subject has been fully discussed in an article by Cassel in Herzog's Real. Enc. xvii. pp.588-594. But a curious piece of evidence comes to us from a Jewish source. In the addition to the Megillath Taanith (ed. Warsh. p. 20) the 9th Tebheth is marked as a fast day, and it is added, but the reason for this addition is not stated. Now, Jewish chronologists have fixed on that day as that of Christ's birth, and it is remarkable that, between the years of 500 and 816 A.D. the 25th December fell no less than twelve times on the 9th Tebheth. If the 9th Tebheth, 25th December, was regarded as the birthday of Christ we can understand the concealment about it."

II. The shepherds did stay in the fields in December.

"Equally so was the belief that He (the birth of Messiah) was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watch-tower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for the temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover--that is in the month of February when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest." Edersheim.

III. The wise men came while Jesus was still an infant.

There are several time landmarks in the gospels by which we can ascertain the time of the wise men's visit to the infant Christ.

1. The taxing of the world by Caesar Augustus while Cyrenius was governor of Syria.

2. The death of Herod the Great.

3. The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar.

4. Jesus's age at the beginning of his public ministry.

Any time setting for the visit of the magi must be consistent with all four of these dates.

Caesar Augustus reigned from 31 BC until 14 A.D. Cyrenius was governor of Syria in 8 BC and again in 7 AD. Augustus conducted censuses three times in Italy: 28 BC. 8 BC. and 14 AD. He taxed Gaul in 27 BC. Egypt was taxed every 14 years starting in 20 BC.

While we have no direct local records of such taxing in Palestine there is no reason not to believe that Caesar ordered the census and taxation of Palestine during the first governorship of Cyrenius. This helps to validate the general history of the account but is not specific enough to help us in the actual time placement of events.

Luke 3:1 tells us that John began his ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar. The same chapter v. 23 says that Jesus was baptized and began his public ministry when he "began to be about thirty years old." Tiberius came to the royal purple in 14 A.D. Working forward, his fifteenth year (counting the year of ascendancy as a year) would be A.D. 27. Subtracting the 30 years of Jesus's age brings us to 4 BC. Jesus must have been born between August of 5 BC and April of 4 BC (the month in which Herod died.)

Historically we know that Herod left Jerusalem a few months before he died so that February of 4 BC is the latest that the wise men could have found him in Jerusalem. Even if Jesus was born in late August of 5 BC he could not have been more than five months old when worshiped by the wise men.

In Luke 1:5 we see additional evidence for the December 25th date for Christ's birth.

John the Baptist's father was said to serve in the Temple and was of the course of Abia, one of the twenty-four classes or courses of priests according to 1 Chron 24.

Each course served for one week, twice a year. During the special sabbaths all of the courses served.

It was while he was serving in the Temple that the announcement of the birth of John was made to him. Elizabeth conceived after his course of duty in the Temple.

John was six months older then the Lord.

When did the course of Abiah serve? According to the Misna, from the third week to the fourth week of September in 31AD. So, if John was conceived in late September, he would have been born 9 months later, in late June. If Christ was six months younger, He would have been born in late December! The 25th would be about right.


Think About It! :)
 

David Kent

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If Jesus was about 30 years old when he began His ministry in the spring and His ministry was 3½ years then it more likely he was born in the autumn,

John was six months older then the Lord.

When did the course of Abiah serve? According to the Misna, from the third week to the fourth week of September in 31AD. So, if John was conceived in late September, he would have been born 9 months later, in late June. If Christ was six months younger, He would have been born in late December! The 25th would be about right.

Jesus died at the Passover. Probably born on the day of atonement What Jewish festival was on or about the 25th December?
 

Adonia

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Where in the bible does it tell us to celebrate his birth as a festival?

It doesn't, but Jesus put men in charge of the Christian Church here on earth and they decided that it would be a good idea to take over the pagan festivals with Christian ones.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
If Jesus was about 30 years old when he began His ministry in the spring and His ministry was 3½ years then it more likely he was born in the autumn,
So the account of John the Baptist's father is wrong? He didn't serve in the course of Abiah, or the course of Abiah did not serve the third and fourth weeks in September? Or is it wrong that John was 6 months older than Jesus?
 

David Kent

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So the account of John the Baptist's father is wrong? He didn't serve in the course of Abiah, or the course of Abiah did not serve the third and fourth weeks in September? Or is it wrong that John was 6 months older than Jesus?

Well the Catholics thought so, that's why they have St John's day fires about six month's before Christmas. Which they celebrate with St John's day fires. I read about them in Hislop and didn't quite believe him, but going to France quite a lot I have seen them advertised. In a village called Mercey, one year we passed a field where they had built a quite substantial log constructed windmil, about bout a week before with enough timber to build a substantial log cabin, the sails of which rotated. (Here in Kent they call them sheets, not sails.) The following year they built a watermill.. I was invited to go to that celebration by a Frenchman but declined. That year we passed the following day and saw the ashes. In the local newspaper the same year they described one in another village, I think its name is Gourgeon. They said it was a tower 11 metres high and showed a photo, again is was made of substantial logs, Wide at the bottom with two parallel logs then two on top of them at right angles repeated all the way to the top each layer getting shorter. We have also seen Feu de Saint Jean advertised on posters in several other villages. Perhaps you should celebrate them as well.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Perhaps you should celebrate them as well.
Why should I celebrate any of them, including Christmas?

I have never defended the celebration of Christmas. What I defended is what the bible has to say about the date of the birth of Jesus.

When you compare Luke 1:5-28 with 1 Chron 24 a pretty firm picture starts to emerge. :)
 

liafailrock

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So the account of John the Baptist's father is wrong? He didn't serve in the course of Abiah, or the course of Abiah did not serve the third and fourth weeks in September? Or is it wrong that John was 6 months older than Jesus?

Around the time Jesus was born, there are views that the course of Abijah occurred about Pentecost around June, not September. Even miracle babies take 9 months, so John was then born in the Spring and Jesus 6 months later -- that's how they come up with autumn. The other alternative is that the course of Abijah could have been 6 months later, since they served twice yearly. That moves everything 6 months which is probably how some folks determine that Jesus was born in the Spring. Since there is an element of uncertainty, and if you doubt that assessment because of uncertainty, then nobody can use that argument by itself regarding the course of Abijah. In a case like this, we weigh the evidence and not base it on one thing. The 3 things I itemized all seem to point to the autumn -- it's not certain, but circumstantial evidence seems to support it better than other evidence. So this is why I say "probably". Other seasons can be ruled out more easily.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Around the time Jesus was born, there are views that the course of Abijah occurred about Pentecost around June, not September.
John's father served in the Course of Abijah. Each Course served sabbath to sabbath and there were 24 courses. The Course of Abijah was the 8th Course to serve and would serve the 10th week (due to 2 feast weeks when all served). After all 24 courses served (24+2 festival weeks) the Courses would start all over again (26+8=34). So Zachariah served in the 34th week, the week of Yom Kippur, which explains the language of Luke 1:8-23. That would be late September. 9 months later John was born in late June. Jesus was 6 months younger. Late December.
 

liafailrock

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There's a lot of good input here, and I especially like David's article looking at an autumn v.s December birth date from Hebrews for Christians. I like that site and has helped me as I study the language. They have some good numbered points.

It's interesting that the same source shows two different dates from the course of Abijah, which was my point earlier that it's hard to use that as a stand-alone proof. It should act as a supplementary proof since different folks give different dates to his service. That he served during Atonement I do not doubt either, as all the priests were there during the feasts. And it's annoying facts like that which make me realize it cannot be directly used.

That's why I like to list other reasons (above already mentioned) and see how many agree. Like David's link, there are lesser proofs such as shepherds being out in the fields would not occur in December. I know there are exceptions, but as a rule they are not, especially when the evidence points to other times of the year as well (we'll put that in the "Abijah" category).

However, the one thing that comes closest to actually giving a date is something I cannot easily dismiss. And that's Revelation 12:1 again. I looked in 6 different study bibles I have here and 4 of the 6 associate the "man child" with Christ. The other two either strongly hint at it, or again, claim it CAN refer to Christ but other prophecies as well (actually, I take that stance myself). But in all cases, there is no serious disagreement. While I know that the interpretation is not 100% unanimous, the majority of the consensus is that this passage is referring to Christ. And the position of the sun (literally besides its symbolic meaning) and the moon (ditto) describes a position in the late summer-early autumn. If that time is not the birth of Christ, then what does it represent? The straightforward context is about a woman having a child ready to be devoured, so this describes a birth to me. The coincidences seem to plague me that there is something to this after all. Interestingly, that was not addressed by the Hebrew4Christian site.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
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It's interesting that the same source shows two different dates from the course of Abijah, which was my point earlier that it's hard to use that as a stand-alone proof.
According to Chronicles there were 24 courses of priests. Each served one week. There are 52 weeks in the year. 2 weeks of week long festivals. 52 weeks minus 24 weeks equals 28 weeks minus the 2 festival weeks equals 26 weeks, then the first course starts over again. His course served for the second week 8 weeks later.This is pretty simple math. 24+2+8=34. He served in the 34th week as his normal course. The fact that the other priests also served during yom kippur does not alter the fact he served a regular course in the 34th week which corresponds to late September which is when Elizabeth became pregnant so John was born in late June and thus Christ in late December.
 

liafailrock

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According to Chronicles there were 24 courses of priests. Each served one week. There are 52 weeks in the year. 2 weeks of week long festivals. 52 weeks minus 24 weeks equals 28 weeks minus the 2 festival weeks equals 26 weeks, then the first course starts over again. His course served for the second week 8 weeks later.This is pretty simple math. 24+2+8=34. He served in the 34th week as his normal course. The fact that the other priests also served during yom kippur does not alter the fact he served a regular course in the 34th week which corresponds to late September which is when Elizabeth became pregnant so John was born in late June and thus Christ in late December.

OK, we can revisit this, as you already mentioned this. First of all, do you believe the courses were set throughout the year (i.e. a given course was set at the same time of the month year after year), or rotated around the calendar? You are showing simple math which I can easily follow, but are not stating what Sabbath, or calendar date you are starting from.

As for anyone else. Revelation 12:1? Input?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
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1 Chronicles 24:10 tells us that the course of Abijah served in the 8th week of the year. The starting point for the first course was the first of the Jewish Year.
 

liafailrock

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1 Chronicles 24:10 tells us that the course of Abijah served in the 8th week of the year. The starting point for the first course was the first of the Jewish Year.

OK, so that's what I believe, too. So, somewhere after 8 weeks is about two months after the start of the year, i.e. the third month. That's near Pentecost, late May early June. You cited the number 34 weeks after the start of the year. 34 weeks x 7 = 238 days, or convert it to months 238/29.53=8.05. 8 months after the first places us into the ninth month, near to Hanukkah. So the course of Abijah normally served (not counting feast weeks) roughly near to Pentecost and again close to Hanukkah. That's basically June-December. If June, then John was born about the Spring and Christ about fall time 6 months later. If December, it would be opposite. Now Zachariah could have been there at Passover week and Tabernacles week as well, so that's a total of 4 possibilities. This is why I said we then take other evidence to narrow it down and this does not stand by itself. In this case, I believe the other two points I listed specifies the time more precisely, and the course of Abijah is a third witness to that since it is possible that it would work out that way. The other two points are not preconceived notions. Rather, one is a statement of years (a mathematical conclusion) and the other is an astronomical position (that is impossible to occur any other time of the year). The only thing left is to dispute the interpretation of these two points despite the context suggesting otherwise.
 
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