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There is No “Priority” Greek Text

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 6, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There are some who argue that they have the “priority” Greek text, which is supposed to be “better” than all of the others. One of such texts, is the so called “Byzantine Textform”, which has been complied by Maurice Robinson and William Pierpont. I shall give a couple textual examples, to show how such a claim is unworkable, and cannot be taken seriously by anyone engaged in textual criticism.

    There are a few Greek textual “families”, such as The Western Text, The Alexandrian, The Caesarean, The Byzantine, etc. It is interesting, that Robinson and Pierpont, in their effort to make their “text” the “priority” over the others, they unfairly criticize the others. For the Western they call the text, “uncontrolled”, for the Alexandrian, they say that the text is “scribally defective”, the Caesarean, is not a serious text and is generally dismissed? This “evaluation” can be found in the Preface to their New Testament, 2005 edition, available free online.

    Some rather bold statements to be made, in their attempt to dismiss and disregard the other Greek textual “families”! This alone, should cause anyone who is a textual student, to question the very basis of their “accepted” text, and the seriousness of their ability as textual scholars. It is like saying, that I believe only the NIV Bible has to it all right, and can be fully trusted, and all the others are basically unreliable!

    Very simply put, the claim Robinson and Pierpont, for a “priority” for their “Byzantine Textform”, as “preserving a general consistency of the type of New Testament text”, is no more than conjecture, and equal to the hype by Constantin Tischendorf, the scholar who discovered the Greek manuscript, the Codex Sinaiticus! Or, the “Revisers” of the 1881 English Bible, who supposed that their “version” was the best around! These claims are simply nonsense, and cannot be accepted by anyone who is a serious textual student. All the Greek textual “families” of manuscripts, versions, Patristic quotations, etc, are important, and have contributed to our understanding of a better Greek text for the New Testament.

    Based on Robinson and Pierpont’s assessment of the textual evidence, important texts, like John 1:18, cannot be examined by the textual evidence, that calls into serious doubt, the “traditionally” accepted reading? In this verse, it reads in Versions like the King James, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son...”. There is very strong textual evidence, which has much older Greek manuscript support, for another reading, which I have no doubt, is the Original work of the Apostle John. Instead of “Son” (υἱὸς), it should read, “God” (θεὸς). The order of the words in the Greek text is important, “Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς”, that is, “God, no one has seen at any time, the Unique God” The Greek mss for this reading is over 100 years older than that for the reading “Son”, and has more principle Greek mss that support it. There is, no doubt, also very strong textual evidence for the reading “Son”, as found in the Old Latin Versions, and others, and some of the early Church theologians who quote this verse. However the Greek Papyri manuscript know as 66, dates from around 200 A.D., and is of great textual value, has the reading “God”. This reading was also known to be in the New Testament of some of the prominent heretics at the same time, who lived very early. We have the Gnostic Valentinus, who lived from 100-160); Ptolemy (100-170), Theodotus of Byzantium, (late 2nd century); another Gnostic, Heracleon, (also 2nd century). We also have Arius, and Origen. Their testimony is important, as it shows that the reading “God” was part of the Gospel of John at a very early time, much earlier than the evidence for “Son”. This shows that the change took place at a very early time, by those who denied the Deity of Jesus Christ. Interestingly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses Greek Interlinear New Testament that is available online, also has “θεὸς”, but because of their theological bias on the Person of Jesus Christ, they render it “god”.

    There is no difficulty, as some suppose, in John writing, “God, no one has seen at any time, the Unique God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him”. It is evident that the first “God” is the Father, Who is called “The Father”. In verse 1 John tells us that “The Word was with (Greek, pros, distinct) God (the Father), and The Word was God”. This same Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, is called the “Unique God” in verse 18. Not because He alone is “God”, but, because He of The Three in the Godhead, became Man, and is the God-Man, which is very much Unique! There can really be no real objection, either theologically, or textually, to the reading in John 1:18 being “θεὸς”.

    Another very important passage in the New Testament, where the so-called “Byzantine Priority” text also fails, is 1 John 5:7. It is admitted that the earliest Greek manuscript evidence, if this is only considered, does not have the words, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”. This is the clearest passage in the New Testament to the Testimony of the Holy Trinity, which has been corrupted by copyists at a very early time. The early Church theologian, Tertullian (155-240, A.D.), wrote:

    "Ita connexus Patris in Filio et Filii in Paracleto, tres efficit coharentes, alterum ex altere, qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus." (Against Praxeas XXV)”

    “"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, one from the other, which three are one, not one [person], as it is said, "I and my Father are One.""

    We also have the same time, a Bishop called Cyprian (200-258), who also wrote:

    “Dicit Dominus, Ego et Pater unum sumus; et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unum sunt.'” (Treatise I:6).”

    “The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one."

    Both were of the Latin Church, but used Greek New Testaments as well. It is very clear from their quotes, that they were referring to 1 John 5:7, especially important is Cyprians words, “and again as it is written”, thereby joining the quote from John 10:30, to 1 John 5:7.

    The far stronger evidence showing that John did write the words as found in Versions like the King James, is in the Greek grammar. The words for verse 7 that are “accepted” by all other Versions, are: “ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες” (For there are three that bear witness in heaven). To the casual English reader, there is no problem with this. However, reading this in the Greek (even in Robinson and Pierpont), there is a huge problem. The words, “τρεῖς οἱ μαρτυροῦντες”, are masculine! The following verse reads, “And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one”. Here the “Three Witnesses” that are the same “Three” in verse 7, “Spirit, water, blood”, and all neuter in the Greek. Why would John have used the “masculine” to describe “neuters”? Some argue, that because John here uses “Spirit”, as in the Holy Spirit, that he used the masculine. Really? In verse 6 John writes, “This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth”. Note the same “Three” neuters. Also note, that “beareth witness”, is the Greek, “μαρτυροῦν”, which is not masculine, but neuter, because grammatically it “agrees” with the gender of “Spirit” (πνεῦμά), and yet the same Person, the Holy Spirit, Who is The Truth, is referred to, Who is in verse 8! There is only ONE reason that John could have used the masculine “τρεῖς οἱ μαρτυροῦντες”, in verse 7, and that is because “ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος” (The Father, The Word), are masculine nouns, and with “τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα” (the Holy Spirit), would require the masculine words, “τρεῖς οἱ μαρτυροῦντες”. One further important point. In verse 8 John writes, “and these three are one” (και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν). Notice John here uses the Greek definite article, “το”. What is the purpose of this at this place? In Greek grammar, the use of the article here, is for the purpose of “renewed mention”, where it refers back to a pervious use or a word or phrase. At the end of verse 7, as found in the KJV and other Versions, the Apostle John wrote, “οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν” (The Three are one). Here we have the previous use of “ἕν”, which the Greek article “το”, in verse 8 was referring back to. Remove the words from verse 7, and we have yet another problem with the Greek grammar of verse 8! Even the great New Testament Greek scholar, Dr Thomas Fanshawe Middleton, in his work, “The Doctrine of the Greek Article: Applied to the Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament”, admits that the use of the Greek definite article in verse 8, without verse 7, was a grammatical problem in the Greek text. Dr Middleton did not accept the words in verse 7 as genuine. Yet his own testimony to the Greek grammar, is very important.

    These are just two of many examples from the New Testament, that clearly show why it is rather foolish for anyone to claim a “Priority Greek Text”, and simply disregard all the other evidence as being not relevant for textual studies.
     
  2. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    Everyone on this planet calls "the western" text "uncontrolled".
    All texts are "scribally defective". Or are you ascribing perfection to a certain text?
    It is generally recognized now in textual criticism that there is not a real "Caesarean" text. That is a specific text made in that region. It's still useful in my opinion to describe a group of readings, but a specific text type probably didnt really exist.
    He believes The New Testament was most accurately preserved in The Byzantine Text form. It may indeed be the most accurate group of Greek manuscripts there is.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    only an opinon that is not correct.
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    if you read what I said, this has been attributed to the Alexandrian, at this place. It is not about ALL texts!
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I live on the planet, and I don't! :rolleyes:
     
  6. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    What do you call it then? Or how would you describe it?
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    first of all, show which manuscripts, versions in this text family, can be described as "uncontrolled", and why? These sort of statements are wild accusations that really have no real credibility!

    The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (edited by Elizabeth A. Livingstone, New York: Oxford University Press, 1977, page 550) describes the Western Text of the New Testament as follows:

    An early form of the Gk. text of the NT, so named by B.F. Westcott and J.F.A. Hort because the chief authorities for it were of Western provenance, viz. some Graeco-Latin MSS., the Old Latin, and quotations in the Latin Fathers. It reflects changes which the NT suffered before A.D. 150, and in some places it prob. preserves the correct text against other witnesses.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Wow. You've put together quite a post here, with numerous subjects, some only sparingly related. I'll just correct a few of your misconceptions and then let you go merrily on your way. (I don't have time this week to interact much more. I teach today, tomorrow I'll be out of town, I have my own thread going, and so forth.)

    First of all, I don't think you understand the "Byzantine priority" methodology. Note some sources below that will help you.
    There is no "etc." That is, you listed the four texts that exist, so you don't need an "etc." since there are no more. (The more usual term is text, or text type. "Family" usually refers to a group of similar mss in a text type.) A good explanation of this is in J. Harold Greenlee, Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism, 86-92.

    As for the Western being "uncontrolled," that is the general view of all textual critics, not just Robinson (cf. Greenlee, 87-89).

    Concerning the Caesarean, most textual critics nowadays do not consider it a separate text. Robinson is not alone in his statement.

    About the essay by Robinson online, which is the intro to the Robinson/Pierpont Byz. Textform, a more technical and detailed explanation of their methodology. Simply reading the preface will just get you started to a fuller understanding of Byzantine Priority. Another good resource is the essay at the end of the Solid Rock Greek NT, ed. by Joey McCollum and Stephen Brown. A greater and greater number of textual critics are writing in the Byz. Priority area.

    Really? You're comparing an edited Greek text with a translation? That's not logical. And this doesn't make sense: "has to it all right...." What does that mean?

    As to questioning "the very basis of their 'accepted' text," this shows a misunderstanding of their text. Simply put, it is an edited text from the Byz. mss, and as such is very useful in textual criticism.

    You say concerning Byz. Priority that their claims "cannot be accepted by anyone who is a serious textual student." But actually, Dr. Robinson has become a force in NT textual criticism, and anyone who ignores his work is not a genuine textual critic. Eclectic scholars make sure to read what he writes. (By the way, Robinson is currently preparing a textual commentary which will be extremely useful to all textual critics.) Recent essays by Robinson that prove what I just wrote are:

    In Translating the New Testament (2009), ed. by Stanley Porter and Mark Boda (eclectic textual critics), there are two: "Rule 9, Isolated Variants, and the 'Test Tube' Nature of the Na27/UBS4 Text: A Byzantine-Priority Perspective." And, "The Rich Man and Lazarus--Luke 16:19-31: Text-Critical Notes.

    In Perspectives on the Ending of Mark, 4 Views (2008), ed. by David Alan Black (whose Greek textbook I use), Robinson has "The Long Ending of Mark as Canonical Verity." This book is from a symposium of textual critics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

    A good introduction by Robinson to Byzantine Priority is in David Alan Black, Rethinking New Testament Textual Criticism (2002): "The Case for Byzantine Priority." I highly recommend this book to get you current on textual criticism, and Byz. Pri. in particular.

    By the way, you mentioned Burgon favorably elsewhere. Are you aware that Robinson was influenced by Burgon? By attacking Robinson, the truth is, you attack Burgon's ideas.

    Oh, and by the way. While you rail against the Byzantine, aren't you aware that the Greek mss that have 1 John 5:7 are Byzantine? :Coffee
     
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  9. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    NT Manuscripts - Uncials
    Description and Text-type
    The text of D can only be described as mysterious. We don't have answers about it; we have questions. There is nothing like it in the rest of the New Testament tradition. It is, by far the earliest Greek manuscript to contain John 7:53-8:11 (though it has a form of the text quite different from that found in most Byzantine witnesses). It is the only Greek manuscript to contain (or rather, to omit) the so-called Western Non-Interpolations. In Luke 3, rather than the Lucan genealogy of Jesus, it has an inverted form of Matthew's genealogy (this is unique among Greek manuscripts). In Luke 6:5 it has a unique reading about a man working on the Sabbath. D and F are the only Greek manuscripts to insert a loose paraphrase of Luke 14:8-10 after Matt. 20:28. And the list could easily be multiplied; while these are among the most noteworthy of the manuscript's readings, it has a rich supply of other singular variants.

    In the Acts, if anything, the manuscript is even more extreme than in the Gospels. F. G. Kenyon, in The Western Text of the Gospels and Acts, describes a comparison of the text of Westcott & Hort with that of A. C. Clark. The former is essentially the text of B, the latter approximates the text of D so far as it is extant. Kenyon lists the WH text of Acts at 18,401 words, that of Clark at 19,983 words; this makes Clark's text 8.6 percent longer -- and implies that, if D were complete, the Bezan text of Acts might well be 10% longer than the Alexandrian, and 7% to 8% longer than the Byzantine text
     
  10. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    A Translation of the Book of Acts in Codex Bezae
    Translation of the Book of Acts in Codex Bezae
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Codex D is only ONE such witness for this text family. More to the point that it is also represented in the Old Latin Version of the 2nd century, made from the then Greek New Testament. It is also represented in quotes by Church fathers like Tertullian, Cyprian, and Ireaneus. Add to this early papyri manuscripts, that also have Western readings, P29, P38, P48. Then we have , the Codex Sinaiticus is considered to be Western in the first eight chapters of John's Gospel.

    You mention Codex D and the Pericope Adulterae, in John's Gospel. Did you know that Jerome writing about 100 years before this mss, said that this passage was found in "many manuscripts, both Greek and Latin"? Whatever happened to them?
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't "rail against the Byzantine", I just do not subscribe to the overinflated opinion that this Textform is to be considered the best. I asked last week about the Byzantine mss before the 5th century. There are none. I don't think that any of the Papyri mss are Byzantine. Are you of the opinion that none of these are worth considering for textual studies?

    If the list on Wikipedia can be trusted, the Alexandrian text is by far the best attested for by the Greek manuscript evidence. Alexandrian text-type - Wikipedia

    I think, I could be wrong, that you seem to have been much influenced by the Byzantine text, perhaps by Robinson?
     
  14. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    It is it's leading member. Yes, many Old Latin manuscripts are partial "western", and are identified by agreements with Bezae. Sometimes it shows up in Old Syrian. But Bezae is it's leading member.
     
  15. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    I notice when Codex's Vaticanus and Sinaiticus split, one or the other usually goes with the Byzantine Text.

    There are Byzantine readings in the Papyri.

    The Text of the Gospels: Video Lecture: Challenging Hort

    Here is an excerpt:


    In Papyrus 45, in the fragments of chapters 6, 7, 8, and 9 of the Gospel of Mark, there are at least 17 readings that are not supported by the leading manuscripts of the Alexandrian Text and Western Text, but which are supported by the Byzantine Text. I will mention some of them:

    ① In the closing phrase of Mark 6:45, Papyrus 45 supports the Byzantine reading, disagreeing with the reading that is supported by the Alexandrian Text and the Western text.

    ② In Mark 7:5, Papyrus 45 supports the Byzantine reading that means “answering,” which is not supported by the Alexandrian and Western Text.

    ③ At the beginning of Mark 7:12, Papyrus 45 supports the Byzantine reading “And,” which is not in the flagship manuscripts of the Alexandrian Text and Western Text.

    ④ In Mark 7:30, Papyrus 45 supports the word-order in the Byzantine Text, disagreeing with the word-order in Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Bezae.

    ⑤ In Mark 7:31, after the word “Tyre,” Papyrus 45 supports the Byzantine reading. Both the form and meaning of this passage are different in Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Codex Bezae.

    6.
    In Mark 7:32, Papyrus 45 and the Byzantine Text do not have the word “and,” where it appears in Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Bezae.

    ⑦ In Mark 7:35, Papyrus 45 has the word “immediately.” The Byzantine Text has this word here too. But the Alexandrian Text and the Western Text do not.

    ⑧ In Mark 7:36, Papyrus 45 is difficult to read but it appears to support a reading that agrees with the Byzantine Text and disagrees with the flagship manuscripts of the Alexandrian Text and Western Text.

    ⑨ In Mark 8:19, Papyrus 45 and the Byzantine Text share the same word-order, disagreeing with the word-order in the Alexandrian Text and also disagreeing with the word-order in Codex D.

    ⑩ In Mark 9:6, the wording in Papyrus 45 agrees with the Byzantine Text, disagreeing with Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Bezae.

    ⑪ In Mark 9:20, the word-order in Papyrus 45 agrees with the Byzantine Text, disagreeing with the reading in Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and also disagreeing with a different reading in Codex Bezae.

    ⑫ And, again in Mark 9:20, the Byzantine Text has a reading that is supported by Papyrus 45 but which is not found in Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, or Codex Bezae.

    Now, this is a long way from proving that the fully formed Byzantine Text existed in Egypt in the early 200s. But Papyrus 45 is from Egypt; it is not from a locale where we would expect the Byzantine Text to be found. The thing to see is that in the world according to Hort – a world in which the Byzantine Text is a combination of Alexandrian and Western readings – none of these readings should exist before the late 200s
     
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  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    none of your arguments show by any means, that the Byzantine Text is "better" than the others, or to be used "above" the others. I think my main point has been missed here. I am saying that ALL the text-types are important, however small their witness might be, and must be considered TOGETHER in any serious study of the text. Neither has Robinson demonstrated this.
     
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  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    There are Byz. readings in the papyri: "Yet even though the numerical basis of the Byzantine Textform rests primarily among the late miniscules and uncials of the ninth century and later, the antiquity of that text reaches at least as far back as its predecessor exemplars of the late fourth and early fifth century, as reflected in MSS A/02 and W/032" (Robinson, "The Case for Byzantine Priority," Appendix in The New Testament in the Original Greek, Byzantine Textform 2005, 533).

    I checked this article, and found three errors of fact in the very first paragraph. Our students here are not allowed to use Wikipedia in their research papers, it is so unreliable. I once noted a papyrus described in it with two different contributors giving two different different descriptions of the contents--in the same article.

    On furlough from Japan in 1986, I decided to learn about textual criticism in preparation for any questions by pastors. (There were none. :)) I built up a pretty good library then (have W&H's 1886 American 2 volume edition, Shoultz, Burgon, etc.). At that time I began to use the Majority Text of Hodges & Farstad, having come to a Majority text position.

    I met Dr. Robinson through my son, who was mentored in textual criticism by him while studying for his PhD under Dr. David Alan Black at Southeastern BTs. I consider him a friend, and have had him answer many of my questions about and I consult the Greek NT he and Pierpont edited all the time. I was deeply privileged to contribute, along with my son, to the festschrift in honor of Dr. Robinson's, Digging for the Truth: Collected Essays Regarding the Byzantine Text of the Greek New Testament. My essay was, "A Translator Takes a Linguistic Look at Mark's Gospel," and I traced Mark's usage of εὐθυς from a textual criticism perspective. So yes, I have been strongly influenced by Dr. Robinson.
     
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  18. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are correct here on all accounts. All handwritten manuscripts are valuable. All should be taken in consideration. Including the Byzantine text. The Byzantine text has not always been considered a valuable text form (I have made the foolish mistake) by everyone. But it is extremely valuable, even if not always correct.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The solution just might be to use the Critical greek text, but also to amend and correct it with Bzt readings when they seem to fit better in those certain areas!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This seems to be a reasonable article on textual criticism, as the author likes all 3 Greek texts, but seems to support using the CT, but amending and correcting it with Bzt readings when needed!
    Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot
     
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