These five points??

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother (and friend) I and confidently also others (of my persuasion) hate no one. Yes, passions get out of hand at times, but no one "hates" another. I (speaking only for myself) I DO NOT "HATE" your theology. I just find myself in disagreement with it. Is that not possible, for me to disagree and yet not hate? What say you? Do you HATE my theology, (or me) being that it is different than yours. ( I think not.....certainly hope not).

Brother Its a shame that it comes to this...and Ive spoken to you on many occasions that this is not right. I have never persecuted another person for beliefs, rather I am on the record as having defended others. I am to the point of not asking anymore for peace on both sides. I will leave & you can all hash it out contentiously. Its like drug addicts each needing more & more fixes so they could feel righteous about themselves. Do I hate you, no...but am I disappointed in this mess we call our Christian brotherhood where it's apparent it doesnt flourish....yea I am.

Here is what we do here....look for different theological perspectives to exploit, anything, any chinks in the armor & then we all, my self included, hammer away. Is this Christian Brotherhood? No, no its not. & this little smiles symbol best represents what we do best...:BangHead:

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Yaaawwwn, this thread has gotten silly. Whining is not an attractive character trait. Without the disagreeable debate, there would be no baptistboard.com

 

[Iconoclast]

When one deviates on any one point of the original five points, he ceases to be a calvinist. The basic premise of calvinism is the absolute Sovereignty of God, If one piece of the puzzle fails to fit, the puzzle is incomplete.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim is correct in this post.

[QUOTE5 Things This Calvinist Believes

1. All men Can Freely Make Choices
2. God does not force any person to do something that person doesn’t want to do.
3. People are in Hell not because of God but because of their own unbelief.
4. God is fair.
5. Evangelism is Necessary.

][/QUOTE]

The person who wrote this was mistaken.

1. men make choices according to their nature

2. Jonah, Nebuchaddnezer, and sinners being cast into hell might not agree

3.People are in hell because of sin,not paid for

4.God is Holy

5.evangelism is part of Gods eternal purpose

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yaaawwwn, this thread has gotten silly. Whining is not an attractive character trait. Without the disagreeable debate, there would be no baptistboard.com

with an attitude like that, you'd qualify as a moderator.:thumbs:

 

[preachinjesus]

5 Things This Calvinist Believes

1. All men Can Freely Make Choices
2. God does not force any person to do something that person doesn’t want to do.
3. People are in Hell not because of God but because of their own unbelief.
4. God is fair.
5. Evangelism is Necessary.

Outside of the above list lacking nuance, not a criticism just an observation, this is set of points wouldn't qualify under the parameters that Dort laid out.

The fifth point is superfluous. Nobody is going to say they don't believe that.

The fourth point is fine, but I am not sure what is "fair." This is why it is better expressed that God, among His many attributes is benevolent and just. There is a difference between fairness and justice. The Reformed position on this would be that God is just. He isn't fair, because we don't get what we deserve.

The first through third points are all at odds with accepted and formal Reformed theological positions. You honestly can't be a thorough-going five pointer and hold to those positions like that.

Not that I disagree with them, I'm just saying that in terms of theology they aren't Reformed positions as they are stated above.

 

[preachinjesus]

This whole thread reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me once. He was talking with a Reformed theologian from Europe and the entire conversation moved to eschatology. My friend started talking about how he was a pretribulation, premillennial in his views. The theologian paused and looked at him with confusion.

Then he laughed, patted my friend on the back and said, "Oh that's right you're an American Calvinist!"

The European theologian's point was that Americans are notorious for taking up certain theological banners in part but then cutting and pasting where they like. The traditional Reformed position on eschatology is not pretribulational dispensationalism. Actually that position causes a lot of problems for the Reformed position. But my friend, like many others, didn't care and hadn't taken time to work out the nuance or investigate the history of belief on that topic.

Sort of reminds me of the OP.

 

[ashleysdad]

with an attitude like that, you'd qualify as a moderator.:thumbs:

Wow, do you have serious martyr complex going on. To read your posts it would seem that the poor little calvinists are being chased all over BB and persecuted mercilessly. The reality is that both sides engage if vicious un-Christlike behavior when it comes to this topic, although you seem to take it to another level (did you REALLY mean to come across as challenging another brother to a fist fight)? Honestly, if this topic inspires this much vitriol in a person towards another brother/sister in Christ maybe this topic needs to be avoided. After reading thread after thread that inevitably breaks down into C/A namecalling (er I mean Christian debate) I think that maybe it is time for BOTH sides to take a break and discuss something different. Believe it or not there ARE other things that are worthy of discussion besides C/A. Brother I understand that you are passionate about your beliefs and theology and I appreciate and commend that but it looks as if your passion tends to get the better of you (along with several others on this board when it comes to this topic). Please don't think that because I don't comment much that I don't know what this threads are about. The reality is that I read the vast majority of the threads on this topic in particular and have seen first hand the vitriol that is displayed. I simply am selective about what I respond to. Brother, I have NO doubt that in "real life" you are a kind warm hearted Christian that wants to serve God with your whole heart. I would imagine that if we were to meet over a cup of coffee we would enjoy a great time of profitable discussion and fellowship even though we hold different views. I seriously believe that it is time for the C/A namecalling (sorry debates) to be stopped. Like you said nobody is going to change anybody elses mind and even if someone where looking for answers to legitimate questions that thread would quickly devolve into name calling and poor behavior. I know because sometime ago I was actually looking to find out about the Doctrines of Grace and posted a question regarding it and after several pages of name calling and the like the best answer I got was to read Calvins Institutes of the Christian religion. One helpful post in several pages of namecalling. I am sorry if this seems harsh but this type of behavior on anyones part is NOT edifying or a good reflection on the name of Jesus. The reality of the situation is that if anyone is truly saved it matters not if they claim freewill or Doctrines of Grace, they are saved because the Holy Spirit convicted their hearts and they saw themselves as God does and they came to Christ for forgiveness and salvation. We bring reproach on ourselves and on the name of Christ by this type of behavior. There, now both sides can flame me for awhile and take a break from the insults and namecalling that are hurled at each other. You all now have a common enemy (lol).

 

[Robert Snow]

Unfortunately the way I want to deliver the message is right up in your face & Im not adverse to the response in kind....In fact I would actually like it to happen....you & I squaring off. Then we will see what your really made of. Id reallywould enjoy that. So you tell me, are you anywhere near New Jersey where we can meet?

Watch out, your Calvinistic love is showing! :laugh:

In my experience the boldest person is the one who speaks the loudest from behind a keyboard, especially when they are thousands of miles away. :laugh:

Maybe it's a Marine thing for you to want to get violent. Perhaps you should value your Christian testimony as much as you do your military training. BTW, just because someone puts on a Marine uniform often means little on the streets, so be careful for what you wish for, you may not like the end results.

Aren't you the same on who reached out to me in Christian love and asked me to PM you since you sensed I was having problems and may have needed someone to talk to? I believe I like this EWF more than the one I'm talking to now.

Actually, I understand being a man and only allowing yourself to be pushed so far. In fact, a man who wouldn't stand up for his honor or his family needs to take off his pants and put on a dress as far as I'm concerned. But I don't see where I have done anything nearly this severe. I'm surprised you responded like you did.

But, if you are under some undue pressure presently, feel free to PM me; I would be honored to talk or pray with you if you need it. Many of us get to this point at one time or another. We need to be careful to not allow our human nature overwhelm us. That's what being part of Christ's church is all about. :1_grouphug:

 

[Aaron]

I was reading something in an old thread dated way back in 2003, and since it is dormant now, I couldn't respond. I wanted to "cut n' paste" it and get y'alls opinions on it.

5 Things This Calvinist Believes

1. All men Can Freely Make Choices
2. God does not force any person to do something that person doesn’t want to do.
3. People are in Hell not because of God but because of their own unbelief.
4. God is fair.
5. Evangelism is Necessary.

Now, for the sake of keeping this thread maker anonomous, I will not post their name. Being a free will believing CHRISTian, I don't think I can find one fault with any of these five things this Calvinist Brother has stated!! What do y'all think????

i am I AM's!!

Willis

:laugh::laugh: Anyone who knows how to use Google can find the original thread.:laugh::laugh:

Let me paraphrase the post: This Calvinist doesn't believe in Calvinism.

 

[Tom Butler]

I, for one, certainly don't want God to be fair. I want him to be merciful.

If God is fair, I'm in big trouble. And so are we all.

Thank the Lord for his mercy toward me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Watch out, your Calvinistic love is showing! :laugh:

In my experience the boldest person is the one who speaks the loudest from behind a keyboard, especially when they are thousands of miles away. :laugh:

Maybe it's a Marine thing for you to want to get violent. Perhaps you should value your Christian testimony as much as you do your military training. BTW, just because someone puts on a Marine uniform often means little on the streets, so be careful for what you wish for, you may not like the end results.

Aren't you the same on who reached out to me in Christian love and asked me to PM you since you sensed I was having problems and may have needed someone to talk to? I believe I like this EWF more than the one I'm talking to now.

Actually, I understand being a man and only allowing yourself to be pushed so far. In fact, a man who wouldn't stand up for his honor or his family needs to take off his pants and put on a dress as far as I'm concerned. But I don't see where I have done anything nearly this severe. I'm surprised you responded like you did.

But, if you are under some undue pressure presently, feel free to PM me; I would be honored to talk or pray with you if you need it. Many of us get to this point at one time or another. We need to be careful to not allow our human nature overwhelm us. That's what being part of Christ's church is all about. :1_grouphug:

Yes of course, I apologize for my anger.....I will just have to be indifferent to the insults from now on.

I will have to work on the love thing however. Thats not a strong point with me.

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes of course, I apologize for my anger.....I will just have to be indifferent to the insults from now on.

I will have to work on the love thing however. Thats not a strong point with me.

I apologize also. I think we will all be better served if I stop with the sarcasm I love so much. Sometimes it is easy to overdue it and cause hard feelings.

I will try and limit myself to asking honest questions, and making honest comments in the future, maybe I will get a better grasp on exactly what many Calvinists here believe; I am sure it will benefit me if I am able to do this.

Maybe if we focused on the Lord, and how He feels about our attacks, we will be a little less prone to demand that we always come out on top!

 

[Winman]

Hey, EWF, if it helps, I am a big fan of the Marines. I was never in the service, my lottery number came up 355 and I got married when I was 20, but I have several Marines in my family. I went to my brother-in-law's graduation at Parris Island back in the 80's and was really impressed with everything. I remember going into the War Room (I think that is what it was called) and seeing the huge posters of Marines running over dead bodies with blood on their bayonets and I said, YES! Maybe that is un-Christian, but that is right up my alley.

We even went down to the obstacle course and I went through several of the obstacles. We had to be careful, he would have gotten into trouble if we were seen. I was loving it.

Then he took me to the pepper gas shack. I found a hole in the window where some poor Marine beat the glass out trying to get fresh air and took a big whiff. Boy, that stuff burns your nose.

So, if I had it to do all over again, I would definitely join the Marines. I have the highest respect for you Leathernecks!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I apologize also. I think we will all be better served if I stop with the sarcasm I love so much. Sometimes it is easy to overdue it and cause hard feelings.

I will try and limit myself to asking honest questions, and making honest comments in the future, maybe I will get a better grasp on exactly what many Calvinists here believe; I am sure it will benefit me if I am able to do this.

Maybe if we focused on the Lord, and how He feels about our attacks, we will be a little less prone to demand that we always come out on top!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey, EWF, if it helps, I am a big fan of the Marines. I was never in the service, my lottery number came up 355 and I got married when I was 20, but I have several Marines in my family. I went to my brother-in-law's graduation at Parris Island back in the 80's and was really impressed with everything. I remember going into the War Room (I think that is what it was called) and seeing the huge posters of Marines running over dead bodies with blood on their bayonets and I said, YES! Maybe that is un-Christian, but that is right up my alley.

We even went down to the obstacle course and I went through several of the obstacles. We had to be careful, he would have gotten into trouble if we were seen. I was loving it.

Then he took me to the pepper gas shack. I found a hole in the window where some poor Marine beat the glass out trying to get fresh air and took a big whiff. Boy, that stuff burns your nose.

So, if I had it to do all over again, I would definitely join the Marines. I have the highest respect for you Leathernecks!

Thank you.

 

[Bro. James]

More 5-points

This whole thing boils to how the first point is defined. Depravity is not defined the same way by Jon Chauvin and Jacob Arminius. The basic bone of contention is the free-will of man. Is it enslaved to his depraved nature and unable to choose the good? Or is it free to choose the good or the bad? They both cannot be right. They could both be wrong.
According to Ephesians Ch. 4, one of these gentlemen has the correct doctrine.

All other points are defined by point number one and how the free-will is regarded. By the way, this doctrinal dispute did not originate in the 16th century. Cain probably started it when he offered vegetables instead of blood. Abel did it right. This doctrinal dispute caused Abel to be martyred. This was not the last time the righteous were martyred for believing what God said. RE: the millions of God's elect killed--starting with John the Baptist. This is not to forget all of the OT prophets and others who died rather than compromise.

This is a pivotal point in the doctrine of salvation and the real meaning of God's Grace.

I am not a Calvinist--whatever that might be. I know that God saved me, sealed me and preserved me--in spite of my free will--for His purpose and for His good pleasure--all imputed through the precious Blood of Jesus.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Robert Snow]

Hey, EWF, if it helps, I am a big fan of the Marines. I was never in the service, my lottery number came up 355 and I got married when I was 20, but I have several Marines in my family. I went to my brother-in-law's graduation at Parris Island back in the 80's and was really impressed with everything. I remember going into the War Room (I think that is what it was called) and seeing the huge posters of Marines running over dead bodies with blood on their bayonets and I said, YES! Maybe that is un-Christian, but that is right up my alley.

We even went down to the obstacle course and I went through several of the obstacles. We had to be careful, he would have gotten into trouble if we were seen. I was loving it.

Then he took me to the pepper gas shack. I found a hole in the window where some poor Marine beat the glass out trying to get fresh air and took a big whiff. Boy, that stuff burns your nose.

So, if I had it to do all over again, I would definitely join the Marines. I have the highest respect for you Leathernecks!

Anyone who joins the military deserves the respect and admiration of all Americans. They join, never knowing where they will end up or what they will be confronted with when they get there.

They put themselves in a position where they give up almost all their rights and I have yet to have a former military person complain to me about their duty to our country.

 

[preachinjesus]

Man I hate wen these good OPs get drowned out by the insanity of so many.