Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

Greetings Mel,

Forgive me Mel, but all I see here is long winded, twisting of scripture to suit your mind set. I'd say it all can be summed up by the last paragraph

Caiaphas may have have become a believer before he died...then twist it any way you please.

While the tribes of earth “mourn”, they may “see Christ coming with all the Saints” ....then lead it to the conclusion you are looking for.

It all reduces down to preconceived notions in search of scripture to support it.

 

Logos1,
How easy you seem to "brush off" the evidence for the future Parousia of Christ!
Your defense for Preterism has no basis of proof for a 70 AD Parousia whatsoever!!
The "comfort" of I Thess.4, IMO, is empty and meaningless for those with your view!!!
Mel

 

Comfort to the Thessalonians Demands a Preterist View

Mel it’s the comfort of Thessalonians that demands a Preterist view. When Paul wrote the Thessalonians to comfort them they were suffering right then and needed relief from persecution and concerns about their friends who had died. It would have given them no comfort to tell them thousands of years in the future Christ would come after they were already dead. To tell them to suffer and die without relief would have been pointless. No comfort there. Only by giving them assurance of relief in their life time would there be any comfort provided to them. To do otherwise would be cruel.

Not only that since Paul promised them relief in their life time it would negate the inspiration of scripture!

 

Logos1,
Quote:

Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!
Whatever Jesus promised to Believers in AD 33 applies to us also today!!
The "comfort" of I Thess.4 applies to All the Saints who belong to Christ!!!
Mel

 

It's great to be able to trace the events of 70 AD back through the bible writers

It’s beautiful the way the bible is knitted together.

In 1 Thessalonians 2 Paul foretold the judgment on Israel for shedding the blood of God’s saints. Paul was repeating what Jesus foretold in Matthew 23.

Jesus was working off of Isaiah 3.

You can trace the coming of the Lord in 70 AD through its trail in the Thess, Matt, and Isaiah and ultimately back to the promises in Genesis. It makes reading the bible so much more inspiring when you can see how events and writers are linked in God’s unfolding divine plan.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks Mel, I appreciate your support and vote of confidence.

 

Logos1,
You confuse "confidence" with "sarcasm".
Mel

 

Proof God uses meanings of words we can understand

The bible uses time in the normal sense that we understand it and not in some secret method that only God understands. If the normal meaning of the words weren’t applied and we weren’t told a new definition to understand them it would be the heights of lunacy to try to change them. If we could monkey with word meanings at will then nothing in the bible would have any legitimate meaning.

In Daniel 12 Daniel was told twice to seal the book that the prophecy was for a time a long way off. Usually this writing is placed about 500 years before the coming of Christ.

In Revelation Christ says three times he is coming quickly. And, John was told not to seal the sayings of the prophecy for the time is at hand.

Clearly any honest reading of these events demands the 70 AD dating as the return of Christ and all associated events. Contrasting these two events lets us know that God uses time tables that man can understand and not as some prophecy teachers try to tell us that Christ wasn’t using "quickly" in the normally understood definition that man is familiar with.

It’s now been well more than 500 hundred years since the writing of Revelation. It is laughable that some would try to say 500 years is a long way off and 2,000 years still fits the definition of quickly.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks so much Mel!

 

That my friend, is one of many very valid points that the premil/dispensationaists totally disregard.

 

You are correct, Jesus said "quickly", not "soon". There is a HUGE difference in meaning between these two words. In Matthew Jesus compared his coming to lightning which shines from the east to west in a moment.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

When Jesus comes it will not be a long drawn out process, it will happen suddenly, everywhere at once. This is what he meant by quickly.

But you change the meaning of quickly to mean soon. They are very different words with very different meanings.

Show where Jesus ever said he was coming "soon".

 

Lastday

kyredneck:
Originally Posted by Logos1 View Post
....

kyredneck has the same distorted view of verbal inspiration as does Logos1:

You two persons having nothing in common with us, relative to Christ's SC being a total and inspired Biblical event in the future, want us to believe a single word must have only one meaning! In the case of what is "near", you demand that a meaning other than what you give it is "laughable, abnormal, the height of lunacy, illegitimate and opposite to what is actually intended"!! You think it is lunacy for us to accept God's interpretation of "2000 years as being like just two days"; but you contradict Peter for this interpretation!!!

I notice you keep parroting your pet theory without regard for Scripture that Christ's return is always "near", from God's point of view, and so it is the only way to accommodate His view to the understanding of finite Believers for 500 or 1000 or even 2000 years! John was told not to write what he heard the 7 thunders say; but
to "seal the little scroll"!! Then, after eating the scroll, he was told he must "prophesy again before many kings, peoples,
nations and language groups"!!!

In that context, in both Dan.12 and Rev.10, with "chronos-time no longer" a matter of continued expectation; and with "God's mystery finished" (aorist indicative), these words...indicating the END OF TIME will have come...were "sworn to in the name of the eternal creator"! Dan.12:4-7; Rev.10:4-7.

The "End of Time" comes with the Beast Killing the Two Prophets who will
be caught up to heaven in the sight of men 3 days after they "finish their
1260-day task to demonstrate God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority"!!

Then, and then only, will Christ be crowned King of kings because "God's
wrath has come AND the appointed KAIROS-TIME to judge and reward the Prophets (including those Two who rise up on the last day) and the Saints,
both small and great, AND to destroy" the Beast and the armies of the evil
Trio having been gathered to Armageddon!!!

Jesus declared that this climactic event was "about to occur when He comes with the holy angels to reward every believer"! Matt.16:27. The first word
in that sentence was MELLO and He put it in the presence tense!! And that same context, i.e., that of being "about to come to reward every believer", He added that
"some of those standing here" (meaning "THERE") must still taste death!!!

You have determined, in your finite minds, that the fulfillment of what was "near" had to occur within the lifetime of the Disciples! At that time over 500 of the 2500 years since Daniel had already proved the years belonging to the "END OF TIME" were still as Near fulfillment!! Divine Inspiration allows God to compare 2000 years to "two days" so that AD 33 was "two days" away from AD 2033 when "God will return and Ephraim and Judah seek His face and will be restored as His People once again"!!! Hos.5:14 to 6:2.
Mel

 

Thank you for that reading AT,

I think the lesson for us is still the same: we have persevere through our suffering until God returns or until He gives us relief and escape (if it be his well).

Appreciative,
J5000

 

Oh, baloney. You premils consistently put the emPHASsi on the wrong sylLAHbull of a text, or literalize what is meant to be hyperbole or a metaphor or a type, etc..

26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (the presence of the Son of Man; YLT). Mt 24

And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them, for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17:22-24

Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west:

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

 

I love the way you criticize me for taking the scriptures literally, and then declare scripture to be hyperbole or a metaphor.

What makes you an authority on this?

 

Winman,

Great question about our oppoents' theory on what is literal and what is hyperbole!

These Preterists don't take Scripture literally regarding the End of Time because their unproven premise, that Christ's SC occurred in the first century, forces them to reject what is clearly meant to be "literal"!!

The word "tachus", #5036, according to the KJV of James 1:19, means "swiftly":
"Let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"!!!

There is another form of this word, tachos, #5034, that the KJV translates as "shortly".
It is Rev.1:1 and Rev.22:6...but only with reference to what will occur "soon"...just as
the End of Time is and has been "Near" for 2000 years! As in Matt.24:33.

Revelation uses this word for qucikly, 5036, 6 times and each time translates it "quickly" and in reference to what occurs on the DAY Christ appears!!

There is one meaning for the things that will happen soon and are therefore "near";
but what is coming "quickly" refers to the sudden, visible Presence of Christ at the END
of Time!!!
Mel

 

Winman,

I know you will be interested in the six verses that refer only to what occurs
on the Day "Christ comes in the clouds in great power and glory". Even the
warning to the Church in 2:16 applies to Believers until the End of Time. They
are Rev.2:16; 3:11; 11:14; 22:7,12,20.

One of these refers to Christ's coming to "keep believers from the Hour of Trial"
which will occur on the Lastday...at His Presence. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-35.

Another refers to the 3rd Woe which will occur at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet
and instantly result in the total destruction of Babylon the Great and the cities of
earth that support the global system...and also result in the "treading of the winepress of God's anger and wrath upon the armies gathered to Armageddon".
Rev.11:14; Rev.16:18-21; Rev.19:15-21.
Mel

 

Two examples of Preterism for Your Consideration

Premils and other futurists may be well meaning (I don’t include all of them in that category such as those who promote their wares on TV and radio etc to make money off of an indefensible biblical view) in their view of the bible, but they are still misguided.

I was once one myself until I realized the apostles were completely Preterist in their view. So I know many futurists who are simply seeking the truth and not dogmatic about their view despite all evidence to the contrary will eventually become fellow preterists.

There is so much scriptural evidence to support Preterism which is so deep, so through, so complete, so consistent with the Greek used in writing the New Testament, and so consistent with the eschatology written in the Old Testament that the only problem is knowing where to start in making the case.

Two small examples.

Paul writes to Timothy: 2 Timothy 4:9 Do your best to come to me soon.
Is Paul telling Timothy to drag around all he wants, but make good time once you get on the road? Anyone would obviously say that it is crazy to suggest such a thing—even a futurist would say as much.

Yet when Jesus tells us in Revelation 22:20 Yes, I am coming quickly the same Greek root is used. In Preterism there is consistency in how this is interpreted yet in futurism you have to torture the words of Christ to distort them into something different. It’s not even good slight of hand it’s a verbal hatchet job—blunt, torturous, and crude.

J. Stuart Russell gives us as good a school of thought as anyone on whom the two witnesses are who were spoken of in Revelation. First James the apostle of Christ kept a residence around Jerusalem and he wore sackcloth and had the gift of prophecy and miracles. Josephus and Hegesippus give accounts of his death.

Second Peter also kept a residence around Jerusalem and he was there on the eve of the Jewish revolt.

Josephus details how at the last bodies lay in the streets because burial details could no longer keep up with the dying.

Specific prophecies from Deuteronomy to Revelation are plainly seen as fulfilled in the 70 AD sacking of Jerusalem.

I can't help but find it reassuring that as more and more Christians learn the facts surrounding 70 AD that more and more are finding the answers to their questions about the Lord's return there.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Always glad to help clear things up for you Mel!

 

One example of futurism for your consideration

Hi Logos.

Granted, futurism has its difficulties depending upon the variety.

However there is this one occurence in Acts which, as far as I can see, puts as great a difficulty on preterism as the "sooness" of Christ's Return puts on futurism.

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

"This same Jesus" The demonstrative nominative pronoun outos combined with the specificity of the definite article "the Jesus" leaves little doubt as to who it is that shall return.

"in like manner" Again there is no doubt as to the manner in which He was "taken up" bodily. The Scripture declares 1) that they were looking toward heaven, the heaven of the atmosphere because 1) a cloud received Him and 2) "they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up".

And the place:the mount called Olivet.

The conclusion that He will descend from heaven in the same manner to the same place is a given.

Compared to the promise of Zechariah of deliverance:

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

History has yet to record this battle against Jerusalem with the Lord Himself coming to deliver them from the vantage point of the Mount of Olives with the following result:​

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

HankD​

 

Well......... isn't that what we do here on the debate forums, criticize? Whether indirectly, politely, bluntly, or saccharin sweetly, we criticize. (Maybe I shouldn't have said oh baloney.)

I am critical of your rendering of Mt 24:27. There is nothing within the text of the passage to indicate that Christ was telling them that His coming would be 'as quick as lightnin'. He is telling them that just as lightning lights up the entire sky, so will His presence on earth be; '...now shall He be great unto the ends of the earth', which is in alignment with the rest of scripture as shown in post #92.

This is one of those passages that has been misapplied, sensationalized, marketed and sold for bookoo filthy lucre to the deluded faithful of the Israel Cult by charlatans like Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, etc., etc.; there's many of them.

 

That your interpretation is error is shown by verse 26.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus was not teaching that his presence would be everywhere as you believe, in fact he is teaching the opposite. He had just told his disciples that if someone were to say he were out in the desert don't go there, because that is not where he is. He said the same about secret chambers.

No, he is teaching that he will suddenly appear, quick as lightning from the east to the west and it will be obvious to all.

But he is not promising to come "soon". He said he would come "quickly" which is a very different word with a very different meaning.

Show me in scriptures where Jesus ever said he was coming "soon".

 

To add more, Jesus never taught that he was returning soon, on the contrary, he taught that he would tarry and that people would become complacent, and that he would return when they did not expect. And he comes quickly, there is no time to repent if a person has not done so already. So, we must always be ready at every moment, because we do not know when he will return, and there will be no time to repent if you are caught unawares.

In the parable of the ten virgins, it says the bridegroom tarried.

Matt 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

The object of this parable is to teach persons not to grow complacent because the Lord tarries.

Matt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Later in the same chapter he gives another parable and shows he will not return for a long time.

Matt 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

It is shown in chapter 24 that he will come after a long time.

Matt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

That it would be a long time before he returns is shown in Luke 19.

Luke 19:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

So, Jesus did not teach he was coming soon, he taught there would be a delay, a long time that passes and men would become complacent. Then he would come suddenly and very quickly when they least expect it. Therefore they must always be ready, as they do not know when he comes.