Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

That's OK.

We all make mistakes... :thumbs:


HankD

 

Just curious, are you meaning 'Mosaic Age' here, or are you assigning a different meaning to the word 'generation' as some futurists/dispensationalists do?

Example:

But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this 'generation'. Lu 17:25

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this 'generation'. Mt 23:36

Do the two above uses of the word 'generation' have the same meaning of the use of the word 'generation' below? Or are you implying a different meaning to it?:

So all the 'generations' from Abraham unto David are fourteen 'generations'; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen 'generations'; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen 'generations'. Mt 1:17

 

In light of the passages given below (and there's many others), just how is it that Christ is not now, today, king over all the earth?:

And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mt 28:18

who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Pet 3:22

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:36

 

Just watch this evening's news.

2 Peter 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

Has the king over all the earth allowed the passage of Roe v. Wade and the slaughter of 52 million innocent lives?​

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?​

HankD​

 

Hi kyredneck,

I’m sure different people tweak it different ways and I could have said they were living under the law. I was using it here in that context that Jesus was born under the law. The Mosaic law hence they were considered a Mosaic generation. All the generations from Moses to 70 AD could be considered Mosaic generations since their society was based around the temple and related Mosaic prescribed activities. The generation of Jesus and the Apostles would of course be the last Mosaic generation since the Old Covenant passed away at 70 AD and the New Covenant came into its own then.

Looking at your question is the term generation the same—I’ll have to research that and do another post. The term “This Generation” is used numerous times in the NT and futurists don’t change the meaning of them to mean something other than the current generation. They selectively cherry pick “this generation” not to mean the current generation when it is in a verse that obviously points to 70 AD.

I certainly agree with your statement that Jesus is now King of all the Earth.

And on an additional note if more bible study was done by reading the bible through the lens of the Old Covenant Jewish perspective it would clear up much of the misunderstanding people experience today. We make the mistake of reading the bible like any other English literature and fail to realize we should put ourselves in the mindset of the Jewish authors. When they expect the age to come to an end it is their Jewish age that is ending—the reign of the Mosaic law not the Christian age.

 

I beg to differ with you on this. I've heard/read from more than one dispensationalist that attempts to twist the word 'generation' to mean 'the race of the Jews'; i.e. 'This generation [race of the Jews] shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.'

While doing this research of yours on 'this generation', please make certain to include in it the 'Song of Moses'; Dt 31:16 through Dt 32. Then take note: This Song of Moses is being sang in the 15th chapter of Revelation.

[edit, add on]:
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach thou it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31

 

Hi kyredneck,

I’m not sure where we differ on the meaning here. Maybe I just wrote it in a confusing way. I’ve read the same thing plenty of times where premils try to say it means the race of the Jews instead of the contemporary generation. And, indeed it is a poor attempt of twisting the meaning.

Yes the “Song of Moses” does make an appearance again in Jerusalem during the siege in 70 AD. I take it you have read the account Josephus wrote about.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks ever so much Mel.

 

Context is the answer.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

And that Scripture is being fulfilled by this very conversation.


HankD

 

Don't make time stand still for Christ

“Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Often times bible scholars force time to stand still for this statement. They take the limited knowledge that Jesus has when he is on earth in human form and extend it into His glorified role in heaven. After He returns to heaven He clearly knows more about the timing of His second coming as evidenced by the temporal nature of His statements to John that He was coming quickly. He knows that it is a very little while till His return at the very least.

Present company excluded I’m sure Hank, many futurists cling to the Matthew statement in a desperate, futile attempt to justify changing Christ statement about coming quickly to change it into something that is meaningless and postpone His return thousands of years in the future.

God clearly spoke through His prophets in temporal statements that humans can understand. The Old Testament prophets knew the redemption of man was a long way off and the New Testament prophets knew it was at hand.

If we can’t trust his temporal statements then how could we think he would speak to us on a level we could understand on any other subject? Nothing would have any real meaning to us.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

I’m just doing my humble best Mel, but I always appreciate your confidence and support!

 

Lastday

Logos,

Every now and then you come through with a "brilliancy" that reflects the fact that even a Preterist must recognize truth that applies to the entire generation
of God's former Chosen People when He chooses them a "second time":

But here you and kyredneck fail to "agree" on this very vital aspect of God's
inspired word. That failure exposes the basic error of your "follow up" to your
glimpses of inspired truth that Jews, in singing the Song of Moses, will recognize, after 2000 years since they rejected Yeshua as their Messiah,
they finally will all "know the Lord" (as well as all mankind will know the Lord when His Kingdom has come to earth literally and "all mankind knows the Lord, from the least to the greatest...THEN they will come to Jerusalem to worship God alone"...but only after the Last Martyr has been killed and they come out from under the Altar! Rev.15:1-5; Rev.6:9-11; Rev.7:9-11.

The time has not yet arrived in which "all mankind knows the Lord". Why?
Because the Jews have not yet sung the Song of Moses. The Jews will
not sing that Song until the armies gather to Armageddon; NOR until the
last Martyr "has been killed who must be killed"; NOR until one third of mankind has been killed at the appointed "year, month, day and hour"!!

At the End of the Age, at this End-of-Time-Slaughter by the armies of the Kings from the East (instead of the West), 1260 days after the destruction of Western Rome (the 4th extended Kingdom of Daniel 2) in one hour. It will then be the "appointed time for the total destruction of the cities of the nations that has supported Mystery Babylon for 2000 Years...when "time shall be no longer because the mystery of God was finished" [Here the future tense and aorist (past tense in the indicative mood)] forces the End of Time to occur within 3 or 4 days of the killing of "some who taste death after they have seen the Two Prophets manifesting God's Kingdom Power during the final Endtime stage of the Generation whom God has not forgotten!!!

That, sir, is what I meant by "Job and Israel" being my Jury. But those on both sides of the spiritual and literal aspects of the Kingdom of God must
wait until the Last Martyr has been killed on the Lastday, until the Church has been completed, until Elijah has finished his part in the "restoration of all things" and Jesus will "no longer remain in heaven" but comes to finish the "times of restoration"...ON the Day known only to the Father. Matt.17:11.
Here "restore"; apokatastaysei; #600, future active indicative, refers to the restoration of Israel to their former state (God will choose them a second time; Isa.11:11) AND Acts 3:21 (genitive; apokatastasews; #605); not only Israel's restoration to their former estate, but even to the more perfect physical and material estate of that of Paradise before Adam fell!

The Preterist view offers no evidence that any of these things contributed to a total climax of this world's kingdoms. Martyrs are still tasting death. The End of the Age cannot occur as long as men are still being saved under the
New Covenant in Christ's Blood!!

But Logos, the New Covenant for the reunited Houses of Ephraim and Judah
remains unfulfilled until the Last Member of the Body of Christ has been saved; until the Old Covenant (still observed by the Jews) will have vanished...for it is "growing old and its disappearance is 'near'"... just as the End of Time has been "near" for 2000 years!!! Heb.8:13.
Mel

 

It's no problem. You said:

....And I said:

Several passages from the Song of Moses (Dt 32) are quoted by Christ and the apostles, and, I believe it's significant that it is being sang in heaven in Re 15:3.

Oh yea, I've read Josephus's entire works.

 

Lastday

Logos,

Another clear evidence of mistreating the accommodation that Jesus made
for making 2000 years mean no more than the "two days" of Hosea signify!
Your quote explains why the importance of His extension of time for what
was "near" has displaced the former understanding that you once enjoyed!!
In Luke's account Jesus predicted the "days of vengeance...of God's wrath
would continue after AD 70 and their house would remain desolate until the
times of the Gentiles were finished"...even though another Temple is built!!!
Mel

 

We have already been over this subject many many times, even in the temporal statements we are told that the subjectivity of the passage of time is primarily from God's view and not ours.

What seems a "delay" to us (which He admits in at least one passage) is not so for God. In fact He asks us not to be ignorant of this fact.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

Here is another subject:

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

This Scripture very specifically says that Jesus (Jesus of Nazareth, not Titus of Rome) will come down from heaven in the same manner as He left.

I might ask you a similar question about trusting what the Scripture plainly teaches but I won't since that question followed by the inevitable ad hominems from both sides has been bantied over and over again.

Every system of eschatology has its difficulties, this verse (Acts 1:11) represents one of the great difficulties with full preterism.

One which I believe has no sufficient explanation.

I believe that the futuristic outlook with the aspect of a "delay" in His coming is the proper view, you believe otherwise and assign allegory and imagery where I would not (granted that allegory and imagery is a valid method of communication even of the inspired Scripture).

It's not a question of spirituality (IMO) but a matter of choice, because even the most spiritual mortal on planet earth cannot know the date of His visible return (which Scripture declares) until it actually happens when "every eye shall see Him".


HankD

 

No sarcasm of facetiousness meant; I suppose you're also looking for the day when 'the wolf and the lamb shall literally feed together, and the lion shall literally eat straw like the ox'. I don't/can't literalize such passages and to me the new heaven and new earth represent the new covenant as shown in Heb 12. As far as this world of sin and woe goes, all I know to say is Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and especially that He is in no way responsible for that sin and woe.

 

And in that we are in agreement.

HankD

 

I believe this to be literal. I actually believe the wolf and lamb will feed together and the lion shall eat straw. It will be like the original garden of Eden.

The problem Preterism cannot answer is that God has promised in the last days to save Israel, not destroy it.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The Lord is not coming to destroy Israel but to restore it and exalt it above all nations. And there will be an end of war, something that has obviously not happened.

This is just one passage of many that shows Jesus will return to save Israel, not destroy it. Preterism has no answer for this.