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THose Who Haven't Heard

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001.

  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Scott,

    You must have missed where I posted my conservative views. Anyway, I strenuously reject any attempt to label me because, when taken as a whole, my views do not place me in ANY category; my beliefs span the theological spectrum.

    I see that you have the ability to pull up fragments of my posts/responses to those who have attacked, name-called, insulted, and questioned my intelligence and even salvation. If you were interested in the truth and fairness, you would post those quotes in context, but that would take too much room and effort, wouldn't it? Besides that, it would prove you wrong, and many fundamentalists would rather be dead than wrong.
     
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    ...I should have said, would rather be dead than to have to admit they were wrong.
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    According to Mr. Temple's theory, anyone who does the following would be guilty of adhering to humanistic superiority and imposing unsubmissive, humnanistic presuppositions onto scripture in order to validate their preferences:

    All who allow women to speak after entering the church doors; all who allow women to braid their hair or cut it short; all women who wear gold or pearls; all who allow musical instruments in church--since the New Testament doesn't teach it, at least Primitive Baptists are consistent here.

    The list could go on, but I think that is sufficient to get the idea across.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Daniel 12:2 refers to a specific part of the resurrection which will include many. Cross reference it with Rev 20:4-5, 1 Cor 15:20ff where several different stages of the resurrection are distinguished. Thus at one resurrection, many will be raised. IMO, it is the OT people who are raised at that time. Check any of a number of commentaries to document that this does not refer to the totality. I had not considered the context when I responded earlier – a major mistake in hermeneutics. Isolating a Scripture from the broader context of Scripture and theology leads to the kind of mistake you made with this passage.

    On Rev 20:11-15, you have me confused. You say that it does not say that all men will be raised, only those whose name is not in the book of life. Well where are the people who are in the book of life?? They are obviously already alive. The only people left are those who are not in the book of life (cf 20:4-5). Therefore, by default all are raised. There is no Scripture to even remotely suggest there are some who simply disappear or are annihilated. That is an unbiblical doctrine that diminishes the glory of God by lessening the punishment for sin.

    As for TULIP and Calvin, I don’t know that Calvin said it was dreadful. I do not really care. I arrived at my position from Scripture, before I knew what the TULIP stood for. You are right that it impacts everything. If we do not have a sovereign God in control then the world is hopelessly spinning on its axis, a smidgeon away from total chaos. However, I think the bigger point is that if we don’t have a God in control, then we do not have a God at all. If there is no God, then we do not even exist. Biblical soteriology (which has come to be known as Calvinism) is the only reason I preach and witness. If I didn’t believe it, I would go get a job pushing a pencil or selling insurance or something (no offense to any here who do that). But ministry is useless apart from the assurance that the God who is is the God who saves by his grace, not by our innate ability. The God who saves is the God who keeps. Through it all, God is working all things according to the kind intention of his will. I am glad that all things doesn’t mean all things but man’s “free choices” to be saved.
     
  5. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:


    Slain Arminian,
    Amen Brother, the calvanistic views don't hold any biblical weight at all when compared to the scriptures. It is a free gift, but you (you) have to accept it. "Whosoever will," I believe the Bible says.


    God speed.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Brother Joey - and you are a dear brother, exhibited by your Christian demeanor and willingness to learn - You've got to do better than that! You may not agree with Calvinism, but Reformed theologians have written volumes and volumes of writings dealing with the clear Scriptural evidence for Reformed theology. Deal with Scriptures, and not silly statements like "calvanistic views don't hold any biblical weight at all when compared to the scriptures." Calvinism is nothing if not Scriptural.

    Total Depravity

    Ephes. 2:3 (ESV)
    among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    Romans 7:18 (ESV)
    For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

    Ephes. 4:17-18 (ESV)
    Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. [18] They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

    Unconditional Election

    Ephes. 1:3-14 (ESV)
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
    [5] he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
    [9] making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
    [10] as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
    [11] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, [12] so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. [13] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

    Limited (Particular) Atonement

    John 10:11-16 (ESV)
    I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. [12] He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. [13] He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. [14] I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, [15] just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

    Irresistable (Effectual) Grace

    Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    John 6:35-46 (ESV)
    Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
    [41] So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." [42] They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" [43] Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. [45] It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— [46] not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.


    Preservation of the Saints

    2 Tim. 1:8-12 (ESV)
    Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, [9] who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, [10] and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, [11] for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, [12] which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
    Romans 8:31-39 (ESV)
    What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? [32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? [33] Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. [34] Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? [36] As it is written,
    "For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
    we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

    [37] No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. [38] For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    John 10:25-30 (ESV)
    Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, [26] but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one."

    [ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Hey Michael,

    Not to nit-pick, but you said, "I'm just as strongly opposed to left-wing fundamentalism as I am to the right-wing variety."

    Right-wing = fundamental
    Left-wing = liberal

    Switch your wings and you'll be fine! ;)
     
  7. Slain Arminian

    Slain Arminian New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    Daniel 12:2 refers to a specific part of the resurrection which will include many. Cross reference it with Rev 20:4-5, 1 Cor 15:20ff where several different stages of the resurrection are distinguished. Thus at one resurrection, many will be raised. IMO, it is the OT people who are raised at that time. Check any of a number of commentaries to document that this does not refer to the totality. I had not considered the context when I responded earlier – a major mistake in hermeneutics. Isolating a Scripture from the broader context of Scripture and theology leads to the kind of mistake you made with this passage.

    On Rev 20:11-15, you have me confused. You say that it does not say that all men will be raised, only those whose name is not in the book of life. Well where are the people who are in the book of life?? They are obviously already alive. The only people left are those who are not in the book of life (cf 20:4-5). Therefore, by default all are raised. There is no Scripture to even remotely suggest there are some who simply disappear or are annihilated. That is an unbiblical doctrine that diminishes the glory of God by lessening the punishment for sin.

    As for TULIP and Calvin, I don’t know that Calvin said it was dreadful. I do not really care. I arrived at my position from Scripture, before I knew what the TULIP stood for. You are right that it impacts everything. If we do not have a sovereign God in control then the world is hopelessly spinning on its axis, a smidgeon away from total chaos. However, I think the bigger point is that if we don’t have a God in control, then we do not have a God at all. If there is no God, then we do not even exist. Biblical soteriology (which has come to be known as Calvinism) is the only reason I preach and witness. If I didn’t believe it, I would go get a job pushing a pencil or selling insurance or something (no offense to any here who do that). But ministry is useless apart from the assurance that the God who is is the God who saves by his grace, not by our innate ability. The God who saves is the God who keeps. Through it all, God is working all things according to the kind intention of his will. I am glad that all things doesn’t mean all things but man’s “free choices” to be saved.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks for correcting me, Pastor Larry. I went back up and edited the lines to follow what I intended to say. There may still be mistakes as my typing skills are poor and my emotions prevent me from speaking clearly at times. Although I do get emotional, my emotions are centered on the idealogies and are not geared toward anyone personally.

    I still contend that Daniel was referring to everyone's resurrection since the phrases "some to everlasting life" and "others... to everlasting contempt" both refer to the many who shall arise.

    You are strong in your belief and that's good. I can see why it is appealing to you. I'm reluctant to hazard to guess what people believe. But from what I've read on Calvinism, and you certainly sound like a Reformist, you believe that if it was up to us to believe, none of us would. I agree with you there, but I believe God grants the ability to believe by our responses to Him. However, my position on this is weak due to some rather severe biblical beatings that I've gotten from other Reformist. Hence my name Slain Arminian. I'm either a glutton for punishment or for Truth.

    I read the article that you suggested by Edwards on God and the preordaining of evil. I still think Edwards skips the contradictions this poses. His argument of two different kinds of wills seems like a stretch to correct for some of this. It strikes me strange that the same man would preach such a sermons as Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, since the same man believed that his audience members total unable to believe unless they were preordained to do so. Was this message to torment those lost souls before their time or to preach with a spirit of fear to the elect?

    Here's an article from a website that was recommended to me by a Reformist to understand Reformed doctrine.
    http://www.outsidethecamp.org/wesley.htm

    Please read it. It's an example of the type of agape love one might find in several of the articles there. I am myself a Methodist-- a foul humanist by many's standards. But I find a greater love in the humanist camps than I have seen at this one.

    Or read this one:
    http://www.outsidethecamp.org/fellarmin.htm

    It's an attitide like this one that has left me unable to communicate with many reformists, so I appreciate your responses.

    Unless by some miraculous revelation, I will contend for a more or less non-Reformed viewpoint.
     
  8. Joey M

    Joey M New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Brother Joey - and you are a dear brother, exhibited by your Christian demeanor and willingness to learn - You've got to do better than that! You may not agree with Calvinism, but Reformed theologians have written volumes and volumes of writings dealing with the clear Scriptural evidence for Reformed theology. Deal with Scriptures, and not silly statements like "calvanistic views don't hold any biblical weight at all when compared to the scriptures." Calvinism is nothing if not Scriptural. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, I admit it was a cheap shot, but I still don't see how someone could say that someone else can't be saved even if they wanted to accept Christ.


    God speed.
     
  9. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:


    OK, I admit it was a cheap shot, but I still don't see how someone could say that someone else can't be saved even if they wanted to accept Christ.


    God speed.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But that's the main point your missing dear brother! NO ONE wants to be saved (as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands;no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good,not even one." Romans 3:10-12) and anyone who DOES want to receive Christ, WILL. Why? Because only those whom the Father draws will have a changed mind TO want to come to Christ.

    Oftentimes, Calvinism is caricatured as a mob of people storming the gates of the King's palace, shaking the gates and trying to get some bread from the King, and the King in Antoinesque-style says "let them eat cake".

    The true picture is that the King has left the palace throne, gone down to the gate to offer a banquet to undeserving people, and no one is there to receive it or even care about it. Instead, they despise the king and his love and mercy.

    God chooses to elect and change the heart and save some out of the great mass of sinners who have willingly despised Him, for the praise and glory of his mercy and name.
     
  10. Joey M

    Joey M New Member

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    Chris,
    I do see alot of what you are saying and am weighing everything out in study and prayer.
    If you could would you explain what you see in the parable of a certain king that made a wedding for his son. And mainly the verses that I highlighted in the text. I'm not trying to be stubborn, I just don't want to just grab too hastely at a doctrine that seems foriegn to me.

    Matt. 22:2-14
    " 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen."


    God speed.
     
  11. Danette

    Danette New Member

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    Joey,

    I think this parable is drawing parallels to God's bride choice. God originally set aside Israel as the bride. Israel, as a nation, rejected Him. So salvation was offered to the dregs of society -- the gentiles -- from whom are assembled the bride of Christ, the church.

    However, parables and metaphors can only be taken so far - at some point the parallel breaks down and we can miss the point by chasing the minutia. The NT makes it clear that the true children of Abraham are those who live by faith (Gal. 3:6,7) -- a covenant between Abraham and God which precedes the circumcision (Gal. 3:17) -- which was the set-apart sign of the nation of Israel and a symbol of what was rarely a reality in individual lives - removal of the body of flesh to be replaced by a life of faith (Col. 2:11-12). (See also Rom. 2:28,29 and 4:1-25)

    From a human perspective it appears that God set aside the first "wife" Israel (actually in the OT it says that God DIVORCED Israel -- Is. 50:1, Jer. 3:8) to take a second wife, the church. But God doesn't look at time from our limited perspective. The bride of Christ is composed of all who are of the "true circumcision" of the heart -- salvation by grace through faith in the completed work of Christ.

    But back to the point of the parable, I see two points. First, God has chosen a bride for His Son from all who will come (interesting to see He uses the word "compel" which reinforces our lack of ability to choose Him without Him first drawing us), regardless of their "pedigree." Second, there are a lot of imposters in the "church-bride". Just because someone is sitting in the pew every Sunday and doing all the "right" things, if he isn't "clothed in the righteousness of Christ" he isn't really part of the "church-bride."

    -- Danette
     
  12. Joey M

    Joey M New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But back to the point of the parable, I see two points. First, God has chosen a bride for His Son from all who will come (interesting to see He uses the word "compel" which reinforces our lack of ability to choose Him without Him first drawing us), regardless of their "pedigree." Second, there are a lot of imposters in the "church-bride". Just because someone is sitting in the pew every Sunday and doing all the "right" things, if he isn't "clothed in the righteousness of Christ" he isn't really part of the "church-bride." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I too believe that a man can not come to God unless He draws them, but I was under the immpression that God would draw anyone who would humble thier heart to Him, but I guess if He didn't draw me and convict me to begin with I never would have humbled myself to Him. :confused: :confused: :confused:

    Please pray for me that God will help me with this.

    God speed.

    [ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
    but I guess if He didn't draw me and convict me to begin with I never would have humbled myself to Him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly the point of Biblical soteriology. God draws those who would not otherwise come to him because they don't want to. Until God plants a desire in their hearts they have no desire for him.

    I think (without deep study) that the parable is discussing the Israel/church distinction. Since Israel would not accept Christ as the Messiah, God called to himself a people who are not a nation (see OT references) as judgment on the nation. He will however, restore Israel when they repent, or as Paul puts it, when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Danette is right that we can't push these parables too far; we will miss the point.
     
  14. Danette

    Danette New Member

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    Absolutely! Here's the best news -- if you ask the Holy Spirit to confirm the truth to you He WILL (James 1:5, John 14:26, 15:26-27, 16:13). It might not be instantaneous, but He absolutely will make it clear.

    -- Danette
     
  15. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    What started disastrously has become a very good thread! [​IMG]

    Isn't it amazing what occurs when people go humbly to the Scriptures for discussion instead of personal preferences! ;)
     
  16. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:


    If you were interested in the truth and fairness, you would post those quotes in context, but that would take too much room and effort, wouldn't it? Besides that, it would prove you wrong, and many fundamentalists would rather be dead than wrong.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am interested in truth and fairness however I am answering your demands for proof. I did quote you in proper context as best as I can tell. If I have not then demonstrate it and I will apologize.

    However I doubt that will be necessary. In your comments above, you question my honesty, call me intellectually lazy, imply that I am close minded, and suggest that I am too proud to admit when I am wrong. All this without knowing me or citing proof. Because you have an extreme bias against fundamentalists and those of us who believe the Bible is literal, you have stereotyped me.
     
  17. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Scott,

    I have not done to you the things you accuse me of. All I was asying is, if you're interested in the truth and fairness, post the comments of the others which I was responding to.

    Slain Arminian,

    Keep the faith, brother! You're views are also supported in scripture, reagrdless of what the Calvinists say. And you're right--there isn't much love shown here, which in itself is a strike against the doctrinal position of those who do not exhibit the love of Christ.
     
  18. Slain Arminian

    Slain Arminian New Member

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    Thank you for the encouragement, Michael.
     
  19. James

    James New Member

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    I have read only the first page of this discussion tonight; but wanted to ask what you thought.
    What about Hellen Keller who after learning to communicate (She was deaf, dumb & blind)
    and was told of the savior, made the comment something to the effect of " I always knew he was there, I just didn't know his name.
    This woman had been totally cut off from the world.
    Just wondering.
    HEY Y"ALL.....HE LIVES!!!
     
  20. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    James,

    Thanks!

    I see you're from Yazoo City; I'm from Charleston, so greetings to a fellow Missisippian!

    P.S. Are you a Baptist?
     
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