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Featured Timing of the Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Nov 11, 2023.

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  1. Pre-tribulation

    4 vote(s)
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  2. Mid-tribulation

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Post-tribulation

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. I am unsure.

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
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  1. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure it is Amil who miss the finer points of the entirety of Scripture, since it is indeed they who lump everything together.

    Still waiting for chapter and verse that states we have to interpret Revelation as a series of parallel camera views.

    How can you even call Revelation apocalyptic when the majority of your view has already happened hundreds of years ago. The church has constantly been attacked throughout history. In fact if the Reformation had not happened, the church may have been dead for as long as Israel being wiped out 800 years prior to Judah.

    Israel was given 1400 years as stewards. The church has had 1993 years to present the Gospel to the world. Then Amil deny the reign of Jesus Christ on earth for the final Day of the Lord. Jesus will be the final steward, and yes, at the end, when Satan is loosed, many will still reject God, when given the chance. Just like a third of the angels, and just like Adam and Eve in the Garden blessed by God in every way.
     
  2. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Explain this verse then: Matthew 25:31

    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

    Jesus is coming to the earth with His angels. He will sit on a throne in Jerusalem.
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is not Matt 25:1- 13 relative to the rapture then, 14 - 30 relative to ruling with him as in Luke 19:11 - 27 followed by the judgement Matt 25:31 - 46?
     
  4. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I shared the verses in Revelation 1. There God tells us it's a picture that John is seeing, not a timeline.
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 1 Cor 15:22

    23 and each in his proper order,

    The order of being made alive, in Christ, that is in, to the to Anointed.
    a first-fruit Christ, --------- To date, Christ and Christ alone of all who have died.
    afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, ----- <<<<< Is that the rapture?
    Then
    The end of those who have died in Adam and made alive in, to the to Anointed {Christ} Yet what takes place before that takes place? What is the last enemy to be done away? What must Christ with those who were Christ's and were made alive in his presence do before the kingdom is to be delivered up to God, even the Father?

    Reign? Reign where? Where are these people at who are dying in Adam and needing to be made alive in, to the to Anointed? This is all relative to 1 Cor 15:24-26 Now this isn't stated in 1 Cor 15 but how long do you think Christ, with those made alive in to the to Anointed, will reign before the last enemy to be done away is done away?

    BTW I believe the tribulation will take place sometime between now and, in his presence.
     
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I explain it by pointing to Matthew 25:1 and Matthew 25:14, where Jesus explicitly states He is talking about “The Kingdom of Heaven” in this discourse.

    Jesus rules from heaven, it is the Heavenly Jerusalem and His throne is in Heaven.

    Context, context, context, always helps to avoid errors in doctrine.

    peace to you
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except John put this picture into a timeline. But there is way more than a single picture.

    When John described 4 sets of 7 events, that is a timeline. You still reject Revelation as a final picture. You claim it is the picture of the last 1993 years, and then get stuck at the Reformation.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, no, John doesn’t write in chronological order. He writes in repeating themes. That is clear both in his Gospel and in Revelation.

    The opening scene in heaven is the Great Throne Judgment. In Roman times, this was a common occurrence, and everyone hearing this description would have immediately recognized it.

    There were two types of scrolls with 7 seals that could be presented at the trial; death penalty cases and wills. Each seal had a short summary written outside the seal of the contents of that section. Only authorized people could break the seals.

    So, this scene is both a trial and the execution of a will. The trial deals with the history of mankind, of Satan’s opposition to God and His people, of those who followed Satan. The will deals with Christ and His redemption of His people.

    Everything revealed when the seals are opened has already occurred in reference to the “trial” being described by John in Heaven.

    The final verdict is Christ rules in heaven, His people have joy and peace; those who died as martyrs are honored by ruling with Christ (in heaven) for 1000 years.

    Satan, his demons and all those deceived into following him are punished in the lake of fire for all eternity.

    hope that helps

    peace to you
     
  9. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    How can you have an order, if you only declare one single event?
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Then let's look at that:

    "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins."

    So these 10 virgins only exist in heaven from the get go? Where do they go when the groom arrives into heaven?

    "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."

    So these people worked for God in heaven, while Jesus came to earth?

    After Jesus ascended back into heaven, He gave those in heaven awards for their time in heaven while He was away on the earth?

    So then in verse 31, your context states that Jesus arrives in heaven with His angels who all traveled from the earth to judge those nations in the heavenly realm, while awarding others in heaven for taking care of that heavenly realm?

    Is that your context that all of this is talking about good stewardship of that heavenly kingdom, while Jesus was alive on the earth?

    Because obviously you deny it is talking about any one on the earth at any point in the chapter.
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    That is a personal opinion.

    The GWT has always been in heaven and on the earth since creation. The base of the throne is on earth and the face of God can be seem from earth and from heaven. At least if one can see the spiritual reality all around us. In our current condition we are spiritually blind.

    One may infer from their theology that John enters a courtroom setting. Satan has been accusing the saints nonstop since deceiving Eve. Satan is not currently bound, and has had access to this throne room day and night. Jesus was the advocate in the OT and since the Cross in 30AD. The only time He was absent was from his conception in the womb of Marry, until He ascended in Acts 1. Jesus was the Word. Jesus had a physical body with all the scars of the Cross since creation. Jesus was symbolically the Lamb since creation.

    Did John see all of time since creation? That is a possibility. I think John is one of the 4 witnesses in that heavenly "Throne Room".

    So John was there and saw it all, as stated. But you have limited your interpretation to Revelation only covering the last 1993 years, and counting.

    Revelation 12 goes back and covers Israel since the first government mentioned in Daniel 2 and the image in that dream. The dragon is John's version of that image. John shows us the 6th kingdom, that not even the OT prophets could see. Rome was the 4th kingdom. Then the ten toes was the kingdom from Rome until the Reformation, the 5th kingdom from Daniel. But John saw the Reformation and the 6th kingdom which is mortally wounded at some point. Be that from the revivals of the last 300 years or the Second Coming itself, we are not told. But this 6th head has not been a major world leader, and has a mortal wound that is healed after the Second Coming. Then Satan is the 7th head, the 8th kingdom that may happen. So yes John acknowledges history, but not how you seem to imply.

    We should know that according to Daniel the first 5 empires were destroyed and no more since the church represents that stone cut out that destroys this image via the ten toes. 5 are fallen, one is, and one is to come, but for a very short time span. In Christ, the church spread like a mountain filling the earth, post the Reformation. Even though there has been waves of influence from the Word since Israel was dispersed in 720BC. None so powerful as the Gospel spreading after the Reformation.

    So if you want to limit your scope and interpretation of Revelation as simply Jesus reigning, church being persecuted, Satan and company deceiving humanity, then a victory, that is fine. Those things do and will happen, but I think you are missing the vast majority of God's plan and the best is yet to come.
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    “Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened…” Please notice the word “likened”.

    Jesus is using a metaphor, which He did on a regular basis. This means He is not literally speaking of “ten virgins” in Heaven. He is not literally speaking of a man in Heaven going on a trip.

    hope that helps

    Peace to you
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    No. Revelation 20:11-15 happens, Then Revelation 21:1.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, Revelation 20:11, ". . . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ."
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  16. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't help.
    Do you see Revelation 20:11-15 as a second coming of Christ where he reigns for an exact 1000 years on earth, making the world perfect, and then he leaves for awhile so that Satan can turn the world into a mess, yet again? Then, in Revelation 21:1 is that a third return of Christ with his bride, the Church?
    What is it that you believe?
     
  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 has nothing to do with a rapture of the church.

    "And now the word of the Lord is ringing out from you to people everywhere, even beyond Macedonia and Achaia, for wherever we go we find people telling us about your faith in God. We don’t need to tell them about it, for they keep talking about the wonderful welcome you gave us and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God. And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment."

    1 Corinthians 15:51-57 does not express a pre-millennial rapture.

    "But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Your references provide no pre-millennial rapture. Only in Revelation 20 do we see anything about 1000 years and we know that John is not using specific numbering, but is using symbolic "gematria" numbering in context with apocalyptic language.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    1 Thessalonians 4, "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
     
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  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    This fits perfectly with Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:11-15, and Revelation 21.

    No pre-trib rapture is ever presented in the Bible.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Christ does not leave.
    Not directly. The wrath occurs after Matthew 24:29-31 per Revelation 6:12-17.
    Revelation 20:4-6 does per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 with 1 Corinthians 15:52.
    The rapture in no way takes place until the resurrection.
     
    #200 37818, Nov 22, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
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