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Featured Timing of the Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Nov 11, 2023.

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  1. Pre-tribulation

    4 vote(s)
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  2. Mid-tribulation

    0 vote(s)
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  3. Post-tribulation

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. I am unsure.

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    10.0%
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  1. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Riddelbarger grew up and was a dyed in the wool dispensationalist. Like myself, he would have read both Wolvaard and Pentacost in theology class when studying eschatology. Piper was raised in Baptist dispensationalism. Therefore, your claim is silly. Have you read "Things to Come" by Pentacost? I have. He and Walvoord wrote textbooks I had to read. It was years later that I came across Mounce commentary on Revelation.
    Silverhair, have you studied the four main views of understanding Revelation? If so, would you summarize their positions?

    Why jump into this conversation if you don't care? Do you just toss Revelation to the side as irrelevant for your faith today? Do you think it's just a futuristic history book of things in the future? Have you watched too many movies?

    Silverhair, Revelation is a great, encouragement for us today. It reveals to us the battle and the victory of Christ Jesus and the saints. It gives us great courage to endure all things. Our King has won.

    As to Revelation 20, this has already been discussed regarding the 1000 years and binding of Satan. Perhaps try reading the thread.

    (Revelation 20:1-6)
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

    Is this whole passage to be understood literally?
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have read Revelation and it is in the future as you can not point to those things having happened in the past. Well when the Holy Spirit says that Satan was bound for 1000 yrs then that is what it means or do you think all of Revelation is an allegory or just the parts you want to read that way?

    As an Amill you do not believe those words mean what they say so how do you explain them? What do they mean to you? I would think that most would agree that a plain literal reading of the passage results in the premillennial understanding.

    Kuyper, in trying to refute chiliasm {premillennialism}, makes admissions which substantially give his position away. In commenting on the passage Rev_20:1-7, he notes: "Reading this passage as if it were a literal description would not only tend to a belief in the Millennium but would settle the question of chiliasm for all who might be in doubt concerning the same . . . If we take it for granted now, that these thousand years are to be taken literally, that these thousand years are still in the future, and that this resurrection was meant to be a bodily resurrection, why then we may say, that at least as far as Rev_20:1-15 is concerned, the question is settled. Then we must admit that Rev_20:1-7 is a confession of chiliasm with all it contains." -- Kuyper, A. Chiliasm, p. 9
     
  3. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I read Revelation as John intended us to read it. John uses apocalyptic language and gematria for numbering. The numbers are never meant to be literal, but instead to symbolize perfection, shortness, fullness, and completeness. The use of imagery is never intended to be literal. There weren't 7 literal lampstands, or an actual dragon, beasts, and a prostitute. Even dispensationalists have to admit that they cannot interpret everything literally.
    John tells us in Revelation 1 that he is to describe what he sees. He is telling us that this is a picture book, not a history book. He continually points us to parts of the picture and describes the picture. He goes from one image to the next and then returns back to an image again and again as he reveals more and more of the image. He is doing essentially what Ezekiel did in Ezekiel 1.

    Go to Revelation 12 for things that are past. Go to the six seals and see that they are presently happening and have happened in the past. Go to the trumpets and bowls and see that they are deeper visions that parallel the seals. This is all very obvious when you realize you're looking at a picture book rather than a linear timeline.
    Silverhair John tells you this is a picture book in Revelation 1. He's telling you what he is seeing. Where does John ever tell you that he is writing a history book for the future? You cannot find it in the text. You have to take a presupposition and force it on the text in order to make it into a linear timeline.
     
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  4. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit is all anyone needs to understand God's Word.
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You state "Go to the six seals and see that they are presently happening and have happened in the past" based upon what in history? You still have not dealt with the 1000 yrs of Satan being bound. Please point out that 1000 years for us. When have we had no wars, crime, evil or are you saying that God causes all this to happen?

    Now you should know that when we speak of the bible being interpreted literally we mean: "The “literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation." What I have seen so far is that you do not do that. You dismiss what the Holy Spirit inspired John to write. Why is that?

    Of course John is using word pictures to convey what he saw don't you do the same thing when you describe something? But he is not telling us history but what is to come in the future in other words prophecy. Did any of the prophets say they were writing a history book of the future? It seems you are just reaching for something to hold onto in support of your view.

    You said John goes from one image to the next and then returns back to an image again and again. What do you base this idea upon but your interpretative view. To say that we have had famine's and war's etc. in the past does not prove your Amill view. I have not seen 1/3 of the earth burned up or the sea turn to blood, have you?

    @taisto you have not shown be anything that would make be think your Amill view is correct. I am just looking at scripture and it does not work for your view. As I see it you have to read into or dismiss various texts for your Amill view to work.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    If you mean in terms of 1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ." I agree.

    Your English Bible is a Bible study aid. Is the Holy Spirit going to translate the Greek for you? Sometimes we need other Bible study tools.
     
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Where in Revelation 20 does God tell you "Please point out that 1000 years for us. When have we had no wars, crime, evil or are you saying that God causes all this to happen?"

    1000 is not a literal number. John is using symbolism in numbers throughout the entire book, why would any reader of apocalyptic language ever make that a very literal number?
    (Revelation 20:1-6)
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

    Where in this passage do you read "no wars, crime, or evil" for 1000 years?
    Where does it say that Jesus returns to earth and reigns over the inhabitants of earth for 1000 years?

    Hint: It doesn't. You have to shove your presupposition into the text to force the text to say Jesus is here on earth, reigning for exactly 1000 years.

    Thank you for your statements because now all readers can see that the text does not support your assertions.

    As to trying to convince you, I can see you aren't teachable so you can believe anything you wish and I am sure you will.
     
  8. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit will guide us, but He uses mentors as our legacy of faith.

    (Hebrews 12:1)
    Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I find it amazing that whenever someone disagrees with you it is because they "aren't teachable". Strange that you have yet to provide any scripture that supports your view. You continue to dance around the problem with your view and never address it.

    Many who observe details and integrate the teachings of Scripture into a self-consistent whole wind up in the dispensational, premillennial camp. Why, because that is where scripture leads them. @taisto show us the consistent teaching of scripture that would lead one to your Amill view.
     
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  10. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again. Never claimed such a barrier.
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Of course it was ethnicity. What do you think natural means? They had to keep the law as that was their manifestation of faith. Read James again.
     
  12. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Because there are still saints on earth, not part of the church in Paradise. They go through that punishment you call wrath. Revelation 6:11

    "Said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

    This little season is the Great Tribulation after the rapture.
     
  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    It has never been about genetic lineage as the means of salvation.
     
  14. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Calling Israel Christian is a step backwards for those who make a distinction between Israel on earth, and the church in heaven. Are you presupposing that those brought out of Egypt by Moses were also Christians? Was Jacob a Christian?

    If Israel and Jacob were not Christians, then what makes being in the church different for Israel from the church, as you seem to disregard what it means to be a natural branch and a grafted in branch. A natural branch was the church from conception in a womb. A grafted in branch was wild and apart from God from conception in the womb.

    Otherwise why even stipulate a natural or wild branch from another tree altogether?

    If one is a redeemed Israelite, because an angel marked them and literally translated them out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body, then they are followers of Christ, but not a Christian. Because a Christian follows Jesus by faith, and the redeemed Israelite follows Jesus because they were changed by an angel. They don't follow a Messiah. They follow Jesus as King and conqueror. Instead of messianic or christian following a messiah or christ, they follow a king so are kingdomnaires or courtiers of a prince. Jesus is not coming to earth as Messiah, that took place 1993 years ago. Jesus is coming to earth as King.

    The kingdom of God still remains in heaven. Even though you deny that point. You also deny that Jesus will rule on earth during the Day of the Lord. That is the entire purpose of the Second Coming to rule until all creation is brought under subjection. Currently Jesus is waiting as Messiah and advocate while Satan is constantly bringing accusation against the church on earth. The kingdom of God in Paradise is not complete until the fulness of the Gentiles, the grafting into the tree, is complete. That grafting in would continue until the Second Coming. Not that the Second Coming has been ongoing for 1993 years. Jesus is still standing and greeting martyrs like He did for Stephen, and all other martyred souls since then.

    The Second Coming brings Jesus to earth for the final harvest. So Jesus Himself is on earth during Jacob's trouble. That is why this time is not punishment nor judgment for the church, because the church is removed when Jesus is on His way to the earth. It is judgment leveled against Jacob, because it is the time called Jacob's trouble. This is the last call for Israel. Only a remnant make it out with eternal life.
     
  15. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Now you have removed the OT Covenant from reality. They were born into the Law, and the Law was their birthright. Of course the Law cannot redeem us out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Neither does the Second Birth. Salvation is not complete until the day of redemption, our physical death.

    They were saved because they kept the Law in obedience to the Covenent between them and God. Only God can provide salvation. They were still the church as long as that Covenant was a binding agreement between the individual and God.

    You seem to be superimposing your own ideology onto the OT Israel, instead of accepting the reality of Scripture. They literally had no grace through faith. They had obedience to the Law which exemplified their faith after the fact. Having unbelief was to break the covenantal agreement with God.

    You tend toward pictures and symbolism as long as it suits your ideology. A natural branch has more meaning that just a picture of an olive branch. A thousand years is a picture of a thousand years. 42 months is a picture of 42 months. Satan bound in chains is a picture of Satan bound in chains. The dragon is a picture of Satan and the wordly empires throughout history starting with Babylon and ending in mystery Babylon. The dragon embodies an empire, not that all empires and humans all appear at once at the end of the world. No one is claiming that Revelation is a history book of the past except you.

    The only reason why Amil need Revelation to be repeating the same theme over and over is to put that 1,000 years into a repeat of the past scenario. For all we know, it could also be a future indefinite time frame of tens of thousands of years. So calling 1000 merely symbolic does not prove it is the past. You are the one claiming John wrote out a pictorial storybook of the time between him and a Second Coming. The majority of the book is post Second Coming, which is not that hard to figure out. And if one interprets Revelation in the most obvious way, they will miss the whole point of the book. Clearly you go for the most obvious picture, and clearly are off by a mile. Even if there is one picture repeated half a dozen times, you clearly have not expanded on your vague and ambiguous framework to prove your theory about Revelation.
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I don't call it wrath God does. However, your posts still confuse me.
     
  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    The Law showed Israel its need for the Promised One and that their only hope was to place their faith in the Promised One to justify their sins. They could never, ever, be saved by keeping the law. (Read Galatians 3 and 4)
    The Covenant was for a specific nation through which the Promised One would come. He came in Christ Jesus. The Old Covenant is finished at the cross.

    They absolutely had grace through faith. They had justification through faith. Hebrews 11 tells you this.

    Perhaps you toss out Revelation 12.

    It's not in the past. It is in the present. That is precisely why the term "amillenial" is a false label created by futurists.

    John is claiming that. Read Revelation 1.

    Show us the specific second coming that is between the first 3 chapters and the coming of Christ Jesus that is shown later.

    You seem to have at least 3 future returns of Christ.
    1) Pre-trib rapture
    2) Pre-millenial return
    3) Return after leaving at 1000 years

    That makes Jesus coming to earth 4 times when you count his first coming.

    Are there 4 times Jesus comes to earth as you proclaim? Show us the text of scripture.

    Well, if you read the person's that I provided to you, Riddelbargers and Mounce, as well as listen to Eric Alexander, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, RC Sproul, Kevin DeYoung, Voddie Baucham and Allistair Begg, just to name a few, you may be convinced by those who all English speaking Christendom recognizes as excellent in their Bible study. Perhaps they can sway you to look outside your box.
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The wrath is found in the 7 vials.

    I don't see wrath in the 7 Trumpets, but judgment. Then Satan is allowed 3 woes. Neither the woes, nor Trumpets are God's wrath.

    The Seals would be more like punishment, not Judgment. Disruption of the economy is not judgment but it is irritating.

    Withholding rain in Zechariah 14 is a punishment. It is not a judgment that causes destruction. It is an irritating predicament that cause a hardship to work around the problem with other solutions than a natural solution.

    A judgment would cause destruction and the loss of life and even property.

    Wrath is judgment directed at the individual at the same time as every other individual.

    All are effected by wrath. Many are effected by judgment, and a few may be effected by punishment.

    Show me one verse or as many as you can that show any soul persecuted by Satan or the world for being a Christian in Revelation 4 through 22.

    People have always fought against and killed other people. That is not persecution. Nor am I talking about general persecution against one's ethnicity, lifestyle, nor even religious preferences. Even those beheaded are not like today's souls, martyred for their beliefs. I think the second birth at that point is only obtained by being beheaded. Their only act of repentance and redemption is this only act left available. Death was God's action on the Cross that brought salvation and redemption for all. At the point where the mark is actually being received, I think that the only way out of receiving the mark, is physical death. There is no other option of faith available.

    That is why the rapture removes the church before even the first Trumpet sounds. But I take that a step further, because the Second Coming itself is described in both the 5th and 6th Seal.

    Jesus and all the angels are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are directly responsible for the trouble, because they are gathering people for judgment to face Jesus on the throne of Judgment. All are being removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh and sent to either damnation or eternal life.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Then why don't you all come up with your own name if you think it was not appropriate?

    The thousand years was not in the future from John's perspective. So it has not been the present nor past from when they received the book. You cannot say we are in the thousand years. John's perspective is still future, because not all of Revelation has happened yet. And there is nothing inherent nor explicitly specified that John was repeating himself multiple times. That is a modern day perspective thought up by modern theological theory. Even Satan can use Scripture to tempt and decieve humans.

    From John's perspective the Millennium was the time between those having the mark, and the NHNE. It was presented as a period between people being beheaded (in direct opposition to receiving a mark) and the final Judgment of Satan. And the resurrection of those beheaded was after the beast associated with that mark was tossed into the LOF, but a thousand years before Satan was cast into the LOF.

    You all have to explain away how this mark and beheaded people existed prior to the Cross. Since that is the time frame you all claim Satan was bound. These beheaded are the same people living for a thousand years in that camp of the saints on earth that Satan is released to attempt at gathering an army against. There is no ongoing resurrection to keep adding to this camp of the saints. There is not an ongoing supply of beheaded people adding to this camp of the saints. The only reason given is that these are not literal thoughts but all symbolic so you all can make up something to make sense out of the literal people behind this picture frame you have changed from literal into symbolic terms.
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The coming in Revelation 19 is not a meeting in the air. No one is raptured with or to a white horse, to then descend to earth. No other NT author framed the Second Coming from the perspective that is given in Revelation 19. Now who is adding presuppositions to make Scripture align with their interpretation? Those who read the text, or those who read into the text? Revelation 19 is a planned coming. It was given a time frame of 42 months from the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

    The description of the 7th Trumpet starts in Revelation 10. The Trumpet sounds in Revelation 11. The fact Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven one last time in Revelation 12, deals directly to the 7th Trumpet. The 42 months starts when Satan arrives as the 3rd woe. The third woe is tied to the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 14 is an alternate ending without those 42 months. There is only one winepress of God's wrath. You cannot kill all of humanity left on earth twice. There are two pictures of this winpress. One is the end of the 7th Trumpet without the 42 months. One is the end of the 7th Trumpet with the 42 months.

    The only reason why Jesus leaves and any one is waiting on the sea of glass is to allow for these 42 months to take place on the earth. Those waiting are the sheep and wheat from the final harvest.

    The only reason why there is a 42 month period are for at least one person who is beheaded. Remember Abraham asked God to spare Sodom for 10 righteous souls? Not even 10 could be found. Literally only 3 escaped. The 4th looked back.

    Think about how many souls Satan wants to have eternal life? None. So even 1 soul beheaded is worth giving Satan 42 months. If there were none to choose being beheaded, then Satan would not be granted a 42 month extension. This time is not for Satan nor the lost who receive the mark. This time is solely for the first person to be beheaded. And as many more who overcome Satan's desires.

    Here is why: Daniel 9:27

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    This is the week of the 7th Trumpet when Jesus is declared Prince. That is the declaration of the 7th Trumpet. It is a week long event. It is a week of days. In the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the mystery will be finished, and time will be called. But the confirmation of the Covenant with the many is with those who will be beheaded. God confirms that 1, or many more than just 1, will remain in the Lamb's book of life. Only God's foreknowledge will be revealed at the time of the 7th Trumpet.

    We cannot say which outcome will happen, but only one outcome will happen.

    Revelation 13 through 19 are not a done deal nor even set in stone. No one can claim Revelation 19 is the Second Coming, because no one can even know when the Second Coming happens much less if there will even be an Abomination of Desolation until the 7th Trumpet is even sounded.

    However Revelation 20 can still happen even if there is not a 42 month period. A few details missing would be the the beast, or as some call the thing, an AC would not exist. The person who would be the FP would still be in the LOF. And there would be no beheaded people resurrected. That resurrection was only for those beheaded. The sheep and wheat along with the 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Not those beheaded. Those gathered during the final harvest are who subdue and replenish the earth.

    There would be only one Second Coming if the church had turned the world upside down like they did at Pentecost right before the Second Coming. But the Second Coming does not work on man's schedule. Either the church is obedient or apostate. Even Paul was leaning toward the worse case scenario. Should the church just plan on living out the prophetic narrative or make a difference reluctantly like Jonah?

    This is not about being sensational. This is about being practical and real about the Word of God. Jesus and Satan don't co-reign for 42 months. Many seem to be looking for Satan to come and make a big bang. When it should be the church that goes out with the biggest bang. We are supposed to be the mountain that fills the whole earth. Why not cover the earth, instead of just tiny ant hills here and there?

    It would seem to me that most of the church would prefer being persecuted and killed and have Satan be in charge, as that is the biggest falling away scenario that could happen. What about Daniel who said the mountain would win and fill the earth. We were supposed to prevent the falling away, not give in reluctantly to the falling away. Paul was warning us, not giving us a road map to destruction.

    You can ask leading questions all you want. No one says the Second Coming is found in Revelation 20. That is an Amil myth, and presupposition that the thousand years started in the first century. I have always claimed Jesus is on earth for the entire Day of the Lord. I don't claim that Revelation 19 is the Second Coming. I don't even know it will happen, and that is not denying Scripture. That is acknowledging that only one winepress can happen. If you think your parallel view is right, why argue that John paints two pictures of the winepress and only one happens? It is the same principle, just a different outcome. I also think the same earthquake is mentioned in Revelation 11 and 16. Different picture, and different results depending on whose perspective one is using, yet same event.

    Going away for 42 months is not the same as going away for an indefinite amount of time. Jesus does not give up the kingdom. The kingdom is just put on hold. One must remember, the only reason for the going away, and the return 42 months later, is for God's longsuffering and the redemption of lost souls. The same as the fulness of the Gentiles and the last 2 millennia. Now you can deny the 42 months are literal and make up your own storyboard about the painted picture John has left us, but you cannot change the Word of God and what John wrote. And obviously we see things a lot differently.
     
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