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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by MartyF, Nov 4, 2019.

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  1. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    I think Galatians makes the problem with Roman Catholicism very clear.

    Galatians 1:8-9 NLT
    [8] Let God's curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. [9] I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

    There are tons of things that the Roman Catholic Church requires which are not part of the Gospel that Paul taught. Among the worst are indulgences and the assumption of Mary.

    The many Catholics I've met seem unsure of their salvation. For many, it is a culture that they are a part of and like the Jews of the Bible, they seem to think salvation is passed on through family and culture.

    This is how I am saved.

    Romans 10:8-13 NLT
    [8] In fact, it says,

    "The message is very close at hand;
    it is on your lips and in your heart."

    And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: [9] If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. [11] As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." [12] Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. [13] For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

    How are you saved? How do you know that you are going to Heaven?

    I am really curious. I have many Catholic relatives I can't get a straight answer about this.
     
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  2. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    Anyone who thinks culture or ancestry saves you needs to read John 8. Faith alone saves!

    I don't know a lot about the Catholic church (and neither do most Catholics). I don't know how much they require, beyond baptism.

    I do believe there are many Catholics with faith in God, and so are saved. But, there are also many Catholics putting their faith in Mary or their denomination to be saved.
     
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Oh boy!

    All I can say is this, the Catholic Church preaches Christ crucified, that through His death and resurrection (which is the focus of our worship service by the way) we have salvation. He is the Savior and it all starts with Him.

    It is clear that you reject the power that was given to the Church by Jesus Christ Himself, that there is the "bind and loose" doctrine that has been in effect since the early days. The Catholic Church thus has as a part of it's power to proclaim those things you mentioned. Now, I personally do not seek an "indulgence" for anything that I might do as part of my spiritual life - it is a moot concept to me. As for the "assumption" of the woman the Holy Scriptures say is "blessed", it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, and once again it is not something that I am that concerned with, one way or the other.

    I am like St. Thomas, when I leave this earth and enter into God's heavenly abode then I will know for sure that I have made it. Until then, I will keep praying for God's mercy.

    Thank you for your testimony. I also believe those very words, but I will refer you back to my previous answer. "I am like St. Thomas...…". There is absolutely nothing wrong with me feeling as I do about it, that is just me and how I see things.
     
  4. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Where did you ever get such nonsense? I have never in my 62 years heard of such a thing in the context of a Catholic and his or her salvation belief. This is what we are up against, specious claims by people that have no basis in fact.

    Good grief, it is reiterated at every Mass that it is Jesus Christ who is the Savior, that we get salvation through Him because of His sacrifice. At every Mass we say or sing the Gloria which contains the words:

    Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son
    Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father
    you take away the sins of the world,
    have mercy on us
    you take away the sins of the world,
    receive our prayer
    you are seated at the right hand of the Father,
    have mercy on us

    For you alone are the Holy One,
    you alone are the Lord,
    you alone are the Most High,
    Jesus Christ,
    with the Holy Spirit
    in the glory of God the Father
    Amen.

    No professing Christian of the Catholic Faith tradition could ever think that salvation could come from anywhere else except Jesus Christ.
     
    #4 Adonia, Nov 4, 2019
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  5. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    The Catholics on my father’s side of the family.

    Can you tell me what this has to do with salvation? I’m having difficulty figuring out what this has to do with salvation.
     
    #5 MartyF, Nov 4, 2019
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  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    To the RCC posters:
    Stop for a moment. Think how you would react to a Baptist posting on an RCC board with the same tone as some RCC have used on this board.​
     
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  7. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Then that is them personally and they are simply not listening to what the Church is putting forth. Like I said, I have never heard of this before and no one I know has that line of thinking. But hey, for some it's in one ear and out the other and surely you have people in your pews who are the same.

    Posted above are my words from before, I thought they were pretty clear. Jesus Christ is where we get salvation, without Him there is none and it all started with His sacrifice on Calvary. But we can't forget his bride the Church either, which is where we learn all about Him.

    We just happen to look to the Catholic Church for the correct Christian teachings, as you look to your Baptist faith tradition for the same and it really is not any more complicated than that.
     
    #7 Adonia, Nov 5, 2019
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  8. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, don't try to put it on.
     
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  9. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Ahh. That’s the disconnect. For Baptists, Jesus is not where we go to get salvation. We don’t have to go to any particular place. Physical location really doesn’t matter.

    So, the liturgy is discussing where you go to obtain salvation. Whereas Baptists are concerned with the how.
     
  10. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    But does it also finish with Him? Do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith in Christ and not by works or do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith in Christ + works?
     
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  11. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    I have spent a great deal of time witnessing to the Gospel in the streets and door to door with an evangelistic organization called Youth with a Mission. In the Harvard NT doctoral program there were a few Catholic grad students, but no Evangelicals besides me. These Catholics were excellent scholars. Despite being a Pentecostal Methodist, I have also taught theology at a Catholic university for 12 years. My students were every bit as bright as my Harvard students whom I taught and graded as a Teaching Fellow! You may be surprised to know that I have even won a lawsuit against the Catholic church! So I think I know how Catholics think and I want to be fair to them. I think Catholics have a better grasp of the Gospel than most Evangelicals. As I can find the time, I intend to demonstrate this biblically and anecdotally in this thread. So stay tuned.

    That said, this has proven to be a great and unique Christian site, despite the heated exchanges. Several devout Baptists and devout Catholics have duked it out on biblical grounds in a way that is rare on Christian internet websites. The Mods here should be applauded for allowing this vigorous debate to proceed.

    As an academic, I'm used to this debating tone from the many academic conferences for theology professors that I have attended. At the university hosting one such conference, they hosted a wine and cheese hour after the presentation of papers and ensuing discussions. We changed the name to "Whine and Cheez Hour" because professors with bruised egos would whine and slip complaints into the conversations about how unfairly their papers were treated. I always found this very amusing!
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    And if you don't want your feet to be stepped on; keep them under the pew.
     
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  13. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    It is the latter. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. We work hand in hand with Christ. Can we just have faith or will we also be judged on what we have done in our lives?

    Psalm 62: 12-13 says " One thing God has said; so too, my Lord, does mercy. For you repay each man according to his deeds".

    Proverbs 24:12 proclaims "….surely the searcher of hearts will repay all according to their deeds".

    Romans 2:6-11
    6God "will repay each person according to what they have done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
     
  14. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    We are saved by God's grace - through a faith that works through love (Gal. 5:6).

    The Scriptures are clear that true faith = belief + obedience (works) (James 2:14-26, Matt. 7:21).
    Works are an essential component of faith - not just a proof or an afterthought. James is very clear that if all you have is belief - you're no better off than the demons (James 2:19).

    God's grace can only work in us with our cooperation (Matt. 23:37).
    To say that He forces His love on some makes Him a rapist - not a loving God.
     
  15. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    A primary philosophy in Protestantism is as follows: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself," [Attributed to Voltaire]. This definition came out of the Age of Enlightenment (also known as the Age of Reason). Protestant and reform theology is a mixture of naturalism and relativism synergistically merging to form a dubious logic of absolute opinion of fact.

    To Protestants, reformers and evangelical (collectively Protestants) the concept of objective truth becomes completely foreign. It is an ethical practice of morality without a standard or a guide for our actions that is subordinated to an ultimate purpose; fundamental rules our actions are not subject to an omnipotent ruler (God). Rather, who can make the better argument out of a book. Reasoning in the light of God’s ultimate purpose is moral order, to govern in the light of His fundamental moral rules produces law and order-or social stability. The Protestant would have us believe that the Church is evil, full of hypocrites, and in opposition to its own people. In the same breath they demand the right to deride her doctrine and rites demanding that all be pressed into a worship of the god of their making. While faith is relative to each reformer, i.e. one religion is as good as another; they war against the Church with an objectivity not found in their faith.

    I think Galatians and the rest of Scripture poses a problem for Protestants. So, I’m not at all surprised at a comments such as yours; completely ignorant of Catholicism.

    Let’s see

    • Protestants accept fornication, divorce, and adultery as subjective morality, where Sacred Scripture would indicate otherwise, yet they claim to be the people of the Book.
    • Protestants accept birth control, abortion, euthanasia and infanticide while the Sacred Scriptures would find these repugnant.
    Instead of using holy script to cast scandal (we teach that it is a sin) why don’t you inspect your own conscience for hypocrisy.


    In case you didn’t know it, St. Paul didn’t write the Gospel. That was left to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Maybe that’s why you can’t find indulgences in Scripture. The assumption of Mary isn’t in Scripture; rather it is a doctrine of faith. Mary is however, in Scripture said to be ‘blessed among women’ by a holy emissary of God.

    Let me suggest when denying the Blessed Virgin Mary is mother of God, you reject Jesus is a real man. If you deny Christ was born of the Immaculate Mary you disavow Christ the Incarnate God. Rejecting Mary was Ever Virgin you reject the purity of the Sacrifice Jesus made one time for all. There is no salvation in either of these prospects – whether or not it is a ‘once saved, always saved’ proposition.

    Catholics believe in the promises of Christ, but there is not a single verse that says ‘click your heels like Dorothy and you will go to heaven’. Being saved requires a synergistic work in the grace of charity that forms faith in our hope for salvation. So, no, every Catholic should answer the questions will you go to heaven tomorrow with a firm, NO. Catholics are not in the habit of telling God who He will and will not save.

    You are self deluded into thinking you are saved through one verse, your judged by the whole of what the Apostles taught whether or not your Catholic. And, not without 'work'.

    Not just confessing our faith but keeping and doing the doctrines of faith. We know a little secrete about self-assuredness, you have to DO the will of God.

    Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 7:21]

    But, that’s too hard isn’t it? Sounds like ‘work’. Oh, it just doesn’t sound like ‘work’, it is the ‘work of God’ we do with Him and in Him.

    JoeT
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There are saved Catholics, by the Grace of God, but Rome itself teaches another and false Gospel!
     
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  17. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    Baptists here fail to recognize the crucial role of Greek and Hebrew here. In both Greek (pistis) and Hebrew (amunah) the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." So obedience is already built into the faith concept. That is why James says, "I will show you my faith by my works."
     
  18. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    So you believe that man is saved by grace through faith + works instead of saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Next you will probably tell me that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works in order to get around Ephesians 2:8,9. To repay each man according to his deeds does not mean we are saved by works. Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
    God will "render to each person according to his deeds" does not mean that we will be saved based on the merits of our deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

    So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

    What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
     
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  19. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those certain churches. But those who believe the true gospel and not just whatever those certain churches teach are saved regardless of the church with which they are associated. Sadly, the Roman Catholic church does teach salvation by works and has "another" gospel. :(

    The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works
     
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  20. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) After having been saved by grace through faith, our faith then "afterwards" works through love and NOT to become saved, but BECAUSE we are already saved. You are putting the cart before the horse.

    Yet faith is not defined "as" obedience/works. You are not making a distinction between faith and works but are simply wrapping up BOTH faith AND works in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :Thumbsup

    In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

    In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

    1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
    2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
    3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

    In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

    Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unproductive, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :)

    This seems to be the very heart of your error that results in salvation by faith + works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of obtaining salvation. Authentic faith results in actions appropriate to faith (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith. So faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Where people ERROR is they try to make BOTH faith AND works the ROOT of salvation, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

    The word "believe" (pisteuo) can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Jesus Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Faith in Christ that saves is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Faith in Christ that saves trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

    God's grace shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:21; 2 Timothy 1:9) Grace is based on the character of God and not on our performance or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6) God's grace not only brings us to salvation, but continues to operate sovereignly in the lives of believers. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; 2 Corinthians 12:9; Titus 2:11)
     
    #20 mailmandan, Nov 6, 2019
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