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Featured To Those Who Hate Calvinism: What is Your BIG problem With it?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, May 9, 2013.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Smile..... My Friend & Brother "Yeshua1" seems to always want to touch upon the HOT Topics ....knowing full well that it could antagonize some into a pitched battle. I for one will avoid it. Tom Bryant said it best when he boiled it down to peoples understanding of soteriology & I thank him for that observation.

    Personally I would prefer to discuss all of our mutual understanding of CHRIST, what He taught & what He came to earth to do. OKAY!?! :thumbs:
     
  2. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    Iconoclast: (Post 60)

    I'll only respond partially to this since you said part 2 was coming and this response doesn't come close to answering either of my responses which I am assuming will be in part 2.

    But to address the issue of force. Calvinist may not admit that force is in effect, but you can't call it "Irresistible Grace" and then deny that force is involved. If a criminal resists arrest, what does law enforcement do to cause the criminal to comply? use force. Use of force is the antithesis of resistance. By the very definition John Calvin is implying that if grace can not be resisted then there must logically be something that overcomes the resistance. That is called force whether you care to admit it or not.

    Not only does irresistible grace itself imply force, but no Calvinist would deny that man's will is not involved in salvation (Total Depravity), and even if that will is resurrected by God, the object is still not acting of his own free will. Even if you argue for a "Hobson's Choice" it is still not the choice of the object and thus ultimately is still God using force against the persons will.
     
    #62 DrJamesAch, May 10, 2013
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt 2 DRja,

    Just step back for a second and it is obvious that this is the only thing that makes sense.God has an eternal plan and purpose that he has revealed and made known to the church both in His Son,and in the church through the word being revealed.
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    You are making major mistakes here.
    Salvation is 100% objective and certain
    Assurance while commanded... is subjective and conditional based on obeying lawful commands and performance of the things commanded. That is what God has linked together as far as overall sanctification.... however justification stands alone as it is based on Christs work, not yours and not mine.
    You desire to remove the tension of these two truths and seek to make it a "works based " argument which you can defeat...because you cannot defeat post 39....
    ,

    Once you have stated a false premise,and seek to take the discussion from a biblical one...to carnal reasoning and philosophy....you show that you cannot truthfully deal with what has already been offered. {assurance of salvation is not irresistible}


    Again..quite simple...Justification is certain for all the elect.Those who profess to be elect are told to "give diligence to get the title deed of their salvation"....that is what peter means by listing those things that all are part of who real Christians are,and the fruit of the Spirit...he listed those things....again;
    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

    6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    8 For if these things be in you, and abound,

    All of these listed come in one after another in the life of Christians....as the Spirit works in a christian.....

    Some of these can be counterfeited in the flesh for awhile, but scripture speaks of many times how these false works are manifest as of the flesh.

    they do not work for it...they work showing that they have it....God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure;
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    see pt 3 later....
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    really NO need for thios to get boiling hot, as we should be able to stay civil, and under control, isn't that a fruit of the Spirit?
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I think both you and Yeshua are a calming influence on this board even when you disagree with me or someone else. That is a talent within itself. Of course, when you disagree with me, you are wrong. LOL
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DrJa,
    here is a main root error in your view as predicted...


    If you do not get this correct you will never come to truth;
    If you understand it biblically that is exactly what it says.....

    ALL mankind was in Adam by physical birth

    All in Christ started dead in Adam by physical birth....but By new birth, or rather being born from above they are In Christ..

    Not all mankind are described as ......ALL In Christ

    ALL In ADAM...does not equal ALL In Christ.......

    if you deny this ...you are denying the basis of the gospel.

    Clearly this is another falsehood.Scripture describes spiritually dead persons as quite religious, but never in God's way.they make religion and idols that they like.

    2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

    5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

    6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:


    7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

    8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
     
    #66 Iconoclast, May 10, 2013
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Unless/until the Holy spirit quickens/enables a sinner to actually be able to hear ansd respond to the lord jesus, he is the same as Buddah or Muhhamed to them, another religious leader, nothing more or less!
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Pt4

    Nope..it is a wrong view of sin and the fall, and then a wrong view of scripture itself....man has lost the capacity to rightly understand divine revelation ...correctly..it must be God given.


    Sure...right here:

    You are attempting to argue as the jews in Jn 8 did..jesus told them what was what>>>.

    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.




    no...you look right at it and miss it???
    The text no where mentions "free will" at all scripture does not mention the false idea of a will that is "free'....your will is bound by your nature....romans 618-18 i posted before.

    Men have a will that is bound and a slave to sin....they are servants....willing bondslaves to sin...they have self will which is sinful.

    inMT 23 :37 IT DECLARES THEIR CONDITION....You WILL NOT.....come to me....no man comes to God unless drawn by the Father....that is why He wept over them ....he was willing, they were responsible but...would not come.
    "how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His view makes sense IF we all had the same exact 'free will" adam had from God to chose, but sue to the fall, we are ALL under the "Bondage of the Will" to quote Luther!
     
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I'm certain he meant another and not 'pt4'.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I do not believe free will exists......in heaven we will not be free to sin.
    No one is "free" to act independent from their nature. I will not argue the semantics of it as those who depart from scripture like to do .
    They know scripture does not support this idea , so they must go to philosophy to supply an answer for themselves.
    I lost a large response having pressed the wrong button,,,so i will slowly answer all these ideas.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DRJa,

    God does not elect us based on what we do, or will do....He choose us while we were yet sinners, and quite unlovely.
    You are posting a wrong view of foreknowledge. God foreknows persons.....not the actions of the persons{while God knows all possible actions and cannot increase or diminish in knowledge or understanding} the biblical language is:

    For .....WHOM....he did foreknow...not WHat He did foreknow as you suggest.
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Robert Snow:
    10/25/2011 : "The fact is,that I don't view Calvinism as heresy,there is much truth in it,I just don't think it is altogether correct."

    2/27/2011 : "I was not calling Calvinism as false..."
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :laugh::laugh:eek:pps.....busted...:laugh:
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In the bible backsliding is apostasy...it is used 17 times in 3 ot books...it is always rebellion and apostasy to perdition.

    What I believe you mean is when we sin...do we lose some degree of assurance...of course we do.I am not saying some small sin....but if we take sin lightly and our lives can be described as the same as the unsaved ...day after day....there is no grounds for any biblical assurance.

    The scripture links the two as part of the whole. They can be spoken of separately but they are linked for most regular christians.....no fruit...no root.
     
    #75 Iconoclast, May 10, 2013
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  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    If God was maniacal, uncaring, or worse, both, he would have began with the destruction of angels which He created.
    Instead, He showed mercy to them, who had not yet sinned by ELECTING them to share heaven with Him.
    If this were not so, then Paul, who heard unspeakable things, would not have made mention of ELECT ANGELS to his protege, Timothy.
    He showed the same mercy and exercised the same sovereignty over fallen human beings.
    This points to one thing: CREATED BEINGS, whether angels or man, need the Sovereign electing love of God and He knows it.
    Without that, we all deserve hell, or annihilation, including Calvin, no matter how many Servetuses he burned at the stake, or pleaded for.
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Robert Snow in Heaven:

    "Yes Lord, I am now a Calvinist!"
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


    here is it in isa
    22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
     
  19. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I just want to say that three of the people I disagree with the most doctrinally are Icon, EWF, and SN, and yet they are my three best friends here. Ironic, ain't it? :laugh:
     
  20. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    The BB makes for strange bedfellows, indeed.
     
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