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Featured Today's "Calvinism"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 17, 2012.

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  1. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    You're welcome.:wavey:
    Glad you both saw through the veiled accusations and false charges in post #12.
     
    #21 Jerome, Mar 18, 2012
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Questions yes, answers few.

    Everyone believes in the Soveriegnity of God, but what we believe this term means varies. Everything is predestined = Calvinism, God causes or allows all things = Non Calvinism.

    Doctrines of Grace (DoG) = TULIP sometimes and TULIP plus Covenant Theology at other times. The advocates of Calvinism delight in changing the names of everything, Irresistible Grace becomes the Gift of Faith and so forth.

    Lets think about the idea of separation of Church and State, a baptist distinctive. What it says is those that govern should not dictate doctrine. But what is the position as clearly and explicitly stated in the DoG? Just kidding, no position will be found, but we judge by their fruits and they are all for dictatorial elites deciding what is allowed and what is not, 180 degrees from the idea of the priesthood of all believers. You see they believe in the DoG=TULIP and therefore the Baptist idea of general atonement (Christ died for all men, not just previously elected individuals) is presented as a thorn in the side of theological unity.

    Is salvation actually available to all men or has God predestined only certain individuals will be saved? Does John 3:16 mean what it says, God loved mankind and sent His Son so that anyone who believes in Him will have eternal life? Or did God create us so we are incapable of believing unless we receive the Gift of Faith.

    If you review the "what we believe" statements for all the Baptist Churches, how many will explicity say, It does not matter what you do, nothing you do will alter the foreordained outcome of your life!
     
    #22 Van, Mar 18, 2012
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But there was a time when Baptists and Calvinists simply didn’t get along. Are Reformed Baptists, then, Calvinists who adopted Baptist doctrine and separated from Calvinism or are they those who held to Baptist doctrine having separated from Zwingli over differences? I guess how one answers this will determine if they would call themselves “Calvinists” - even though their belief is not affected.

    I think that your last statement is right on target.
     
    #23 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I guess this is my problem. It is hard for me to reconcile “Calvinism” or “Reformed” with “Baptist” because they are so historically and doctrinally opposed to each other. This is because my understanding of Calvinism is the theological system developed by Beza, based on the works of Calvin, which was largely based on Zwingli. Until Beza, most of the focus seems to have been on the nature of the sacraments, church-state, paedobaptism, etc. But now, Calvinism as a theological system is presented as dead with only its soteriological position (TULIP) surviving – in regards to “Baptist” anyway.

    Not being a member of a Reformed Church, I apparently mistook “Calvinism” to mean the theological system rather than merely DoG.
    It’s probably a regional thing – I am exposed to many Calvinists, but I do not know any that are also Baptist (or could reconcile the two).
     
    #24 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Isnt the proper name for Reformed Baptist really Particular Baptist ..... per WIKI; The Particular Baptists were established when a group of Calvinist Separatists adopted believers’ Baptism So answer me this, whats are they particular to & when did they come on the scene? Also what is their faith confession & how did that come about. Answer those questions & then you may address your questions. Lastly, rather than focusing on Smyth, who most likely was an Anabaptist, why are you not looking at Roger Williams (where did he come from)?

    Here is a brief history....

    http://www.abc-usa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=cgvZuPqWxVU=&tabid=80
     
    #25 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 18, 2012
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Particular Baptists, from my understanding, were “particular” because of their soterilogical views (as opposed to General Baptists) and were also Congregationalists (not Reformed because they rejected Calvinism but agreed with Reformed soteriology).

    Are you saying that John Smyth was not a part of the English Baptists, a Separatist who left the Anglican priesthood, but was instead an Anabaptist? I had just never heard that Smyth (and I suppose Helwys and Murton also) were not actually Baptists. I guess the logical conclusion would be that the General Baptists are not really Baptists after all. But would Anabaptists still be Protestant since they predate the Reformation, and since they predate the reformation is it not also probable that Anabaptist doctrine had some influence on both sets of Baptists?

    I could understand that the General Baptists came about, then the Particular Baptists were established from another group of Separatists and therefore they are unrelated groups that have some doctrine in common (one didn’t just adopt Calvinism but certainly General Baptists didn’t just throw out TULIP – especially when the Cannons of Dort occurred over a decade after the first Baptists were on the scene). But while “Congregational” and “Anabaptist” seem to go together, “Congregational” and “Calvinistic” don’t. I was just wondering how much of Calvinism carries forward into what we now seem to call Calvinism. I realize that they were both products of their time, they were influenced by what was going on, etc.

    I’d also point out that Roger Williams did become a Particular Baptist (for a little while anyway ), but Baptists pre-date Williams.

    And you are right, perhaps “Particular” would be more precise a term than “Reformed" or "Calvinism.” It would have saved me from asking the question.

     
    #26 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2012
  7. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Ah, but what about the New England Congregational Church which was the successor to the Puritans. They were "Calvinists".
     
    #27 Michael Wrenn, Mar 18, 2012
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    John Reisinger does make some good points that are important to consider.
    I say he had an axe to gring...because in God's providence I was able to speak to him face to face about it...some years ago at a bible conference..in Seaside heights NJ.
    I like J.R.....but he is presenting one side of an issue....that has two sides.

    [/QUOTE]
    Reformed Baptists...... are very similar to Presbyterians...because during the reformation...it was many of the reformers who recovered so many truths of the reformation...that we are thankful......anabaptists had some truth...we are thankful for that...reformers had much truth we are thankful for that....

    Ana baptists had several errors.....they were persecuted....by reformers and RC churches....

    RB ...attempt to take the truth from scripture ...from both sides of the issue.....the reformers had much more of the truth...doctrinally
     
    #28 Iconoclast, Mar 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2012
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jon C

    Presbyterians differ primarily in two areas.... the church....and how much continuity exists between the OC/NC.....

    Everything else is virtually identical....but the two differences branch out and spill over into many areas of the christian life.
     
    #29 Iconoclast, Mar 18, 2012
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    particular ...has to do with the atonement
    reformed baptist...has to do with the place of the ten commandments in the life of a believer,and unbeliever alike..

    in our day it also has to do with the nature of the church itself
     
    #30 Iconoclast, Mar 18, 2012
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Jon C,

    Here is a view from a Reformed Baptist Church:

    We believe in sovereign grace.
    In other words, we teach that God is sovereign not only in general, but especially in salvation (1 Cor. 1:26-31; Eph. 1:3-11 ; Rom. 8:28-32). Salvation is by grace alone plus nothing (Eph. 2:8-10). A man is saved only when God gives him the willingness and the ability to repent and put his faith in Jesus Christ, the one who suffered the wrath of God in the place of sinners (Phil. 1:6, 29, 30; 2 Tim. 2:24, 25 ).

    Note they referenced Ephesians 2:8-9 claiming it says grace alone, rather than by grace through faith. From this one statement we can discern the "T", "U", "L" and "I"

    Can Covenant theology and non-baptist polity be far behind. The only thing clearly disavowed is infant baptism.
     
    #31 Van, Mar 18, 2012
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thanks Ionclast. I understand the difference in the chruch, what is the difference between their views between the continuity between the OC/NC?
     
    #32 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Honestly, all these terms are getting confusing..... I have studied both the Westminster Confessions & then the 1689 Baptist confessions & there almost alike except for Credo/Paedo Baptism Stuff. Both Reformed Baptists & Presbyterians generally are Covenant Theology & both are Elder lead....so where, besides what I pointed out, is the dividing line?
     
    #33 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 18, 2012
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thanks,
    It seems that this is the main thrust, Reformed position regarding salvation while. (although there seems to be different views in regards to covenant theology, I think).
    Is there a difference between Perseverance of the Saints and evangelical Baptist’s position of OSAS or are they identical doctrines?
     
    #34 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2012
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That’s where we tend to choose our history – Pilgrims vs. Puritans :)
     
    #35 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
  16. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    #36 12strings, Mar 18, 2012
  17. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    The end outcome is the same. Some who use "OSAS or Eternal Security" would agree exactly with Perserverance of the saints: Which says:

    -Only those who persevere in the faith will be saved in the end, and God ensures through his spirit that all those who are truly saved WILL persevere.

    Now, some OSAS people will say that perseverance is not necessary, that one could actually stop believing, but since they accepted Christ at some time in the past, they are still saved, even though they do not believe in Christ now.
     
    #37 12strings, Mar 18, 2012
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In the OT physical descendants in Israel were considered in the covenant of grace according to the padeo understanding...in that the covenant was breakable...so they say infants who receive the sign are in covenant...unless they apostatize...being covenant breakers.

    So they say the same exists in the NT...our children should be in.....until they become covenant breakers.....


    Rb believe it is no longer just physical birth that puts one in the Cog....but new birth alone....that is regenerate church membership....
    that is why the new covenant is new.

    It is more complicated than that...but i am short on time right now..will develop it more later on.:thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Mar 18, 2012
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thanks.
    I remember reading a sermon by Spurgeon (Choice Portions) where he explains that the believer may fall away, but in the end will come back because he is elect and a particular possession of God and cannot be lost. The reason I had asked is that I’ve heard “perseverance” explained in that manner. I’ve also heard OSAS churches explain that the difference is that perseverance of the saints means that believers will persevere in every situation – never “backslide.” But I take it from your comments that most, both Perseverance and OSAS, take it to mean the same – a believer will always believe.
     
    #39 JonC, Mar 18, 2012
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I was surprised when I was reading Calvin's commentaries that he might qualify as one of those "Low-Cals". Have you ever read what he wrote in, say, his 1st Peter book? He had the opportunity to teach on the L of the TULIP and taught something else.

    I don't have the Commentary handy here (It is back in the States) or I would quote it for you. I believe one example is in the 2nd Peter 2:1 section.
     
    #40 asterisktom, Mar 19, 2012
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