"Torah Observant"

HEBREWS 4 [6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

You find "harden not your hearts" in Hebrew 4. You also see that in Hebrews 3. Talkin bout the same thing.

HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION. [16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came OUT OF EGYPT by Moses. [17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, WHOSE CARCASES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS? [18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19] So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

Scripture above (out of Egypt - into the wilderness - those that believed not - destroyed them)
Scripture below (out of Egypt - into the wilderness - polluted HIS SABBATHS - destroyed them)

EZEK.20 [10] Wherefore I caused them to go forth OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, and brought them INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11] And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.[12] Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.[13] But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

Hebrews 3 and Ezek 20 also speaking of the same thing. So, how do you deny God and Jesus according to this new testament scripture,and walk in the spirit of unbelief. Who are these people and why were they killed in the wilderness? The answer would be very important, as this passage from the NEW TESTAMENT tells us NOT to do as they did and walk with an evil heart of unbelief. When we go back to the old testament to see exactly what the new testament is talkin about we find that Hebrews 3 is speaking of those who did not keep the sabbath and how the Lord was to destroy them in the wilderness because of unbelief. So the scripture in Hebrews 3 is telling us, as believers we must keep the sabbath, and not to walk with an evil heart of unbelief.

DEUT.5[15] And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

(remember - out of Egypt - Keep the Sabbath)

HEBREWS 4 [1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[2] FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[3] For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST,

The same gospel preach to us as to them. Those who believe that gospel keep Gods sabbath day. Those with the spirit of unbelief do not.

 

A little sumtin on that "voice"

HEBREWS 4 [6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts.

So what is this "voice" saying?

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments

JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep hear His “voice”.

DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God. [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

There always seems to be someone out there that will claim the commandments mentioned are not the ten commandments. Cant do a song and dance around above scripture

HEBREWS 3 [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION. [16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came OUT OF EGYPT by Moses. [17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, WHOSE CARCASES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS? [18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19] So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

 

Jesus does say He will give you rest

MATTHEW 11 [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In order to find out what rest Jesus is speaking of simply read the next verse. Keep in mind when this was written it was one continual writing. No chapters and verses.

MATTHEW 12 [1] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. [2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

MATTHEW 12 [10] And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

The Jews added over a hundred laws to the original sabbath commandment which made the 4th commandment more of a burden than a blessing. Jesus sets them straight in Matthew 12 on a couple of these added laws to His 4th commandment.

 

No one who is mentally stable should engage you in any discussion as it is a waste of time. It is a waste of time because you violate every basic rule of hermeneutics. The only authority that determines how you respond to objections is YOURSELF. Your line of reasoning is without logic or rationale. Something could be black as the ace of spades and you would argue it was white and base your arguments upon nothing other than your own opinion.

In contrast the Bible tells us to "rightly divide the Word of truth." That would be meaningless unless there are basic principles that determine exactly how that is done. These basic prinicples are what most of Christendom calls "hermeneutics." These are nothing but common sense principles that cannot be violated without violating common sense.

For example. God is not the Author of Confusion: Hence, you cannot pit scripture against scripture as a way to "rightly divide" the truth and come to any true meaning of any text. However, this is your common tactic in defending your opinions.

God is not IRRATIONAL but provides a REVELATION designed to be grasped by our minds. Hence, words are used to REVEAL truth in a way the mind can grasp them - Hence, words have a logical and grammatical relationship to other words used in the same sentence and immediate context. You cannot divorce words from these relationships and "rightly divide" the Word of truth. However, this is your comon tactic in all your response - you ignore the content of the verses and the relationship of terms used in the verses.

In other words, your expressed opinions are not founded upon any RATIONAL or REASONABLE bases. Hence, for any ratonal or reasonable person to enter into debate with you ALWAYS proves to be an exercise of futility. It is "futility" because there is no common ground between rationality and irrationality.

 

Doc?
Why dont you go back on this thread and read the things youve said of me. Then asked yourself this question...Are they the words of a believer in Christ?
You seem to think scripture is of private interpretation. I believe the scriptures will interpret scripture. Dont know why you call that "pitting" but then again.....easy Chowmah. Watch your mouth ole boy. Thats exactly what he wants.

 

No one can be saved who embraces your view of the law as you do IF that is the kind of gospel they first received. That is exactly the sentiment of Paul in Galatians 1:8-9.

Second, being critical of your method of interpretation and/or handling of the scriptures is absolutely necessary otherwise there is no hope of reasonable discussion.

Third, when you respond to exegetical/expostiory contextual based evidences by simply ignoring the evidence and/or by listing other texts foreign to the context, which you equally ignore when any expository/exegetical evidence is provided that contradicts your design for using it, then there can be no end of this merry go round kind of distortion of God's Word. To continue talking with a person who handles the Word of God as you do is vain as it cannot produce anything but futility.

 

Usaully when posting your opinions you dont use scripture to back up what you say. And like i said i wont argue your opinions. You slipped up ole boy. You used scripture to make your point. Lets see if your point holds any water according to scripture. Your saying Gal.1{8&9} is talking about the 10 commandments. The law that i do embrace for sure.

Galatians 1:7-9 (KJV)
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Now lets see if Paul is talking about the keeping of the 10 commandments or if hes talking about circumscision

Galatians 2:1-5 (KJV)
1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Dont know how your going to interpret that but i know what it actually says

Paul is talking anout circumcision. Period

 

In fact the book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned at all. Not once. Yet, people like you Doc, that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. The “many” will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In preaching that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians.

 

You sure have a very short memory. In my last Biblical exchange with you, I did nothing else but respond by scrpture, a very detailed phrase by phrase of Matthew 19:16-26. It was you that could not and did not respond.

You ignore all the references to "the law"! You ignore that the repeated phrase "works of the law"! Note the PLURAL "works" not singular "work" as in one command such as "circumcision.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You ignore that "the law" Paul has in view included more than circumcision as circumcision began with Abraham not Moses but of "the law" Paul has in view that he contrasts with justified by faith he says:


Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


You ignore the fact that "the law" which Paul contrasts to being justified by faith he characterizes as being given at Mount Sinai in a "covenant" that is more inclusive than mere "circumcision"


21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Now, do you remember what Law was given at "Mount Sinai" Circumcision was not given at Mount Sinai. The TEN COMMANDMENTS were given at Mount Sinai. However, so was the whole LAW COVENANT which included circumcision. Hence, "the works" PLURAL "of the law" includes more than mere circumcision.

Why is circumsion pointed out? Because it is the FIRST commandment in the COVENANT of the Law that is applied to a human being - EIGHT DAYS AFTER BIRTH or the first act of the Law that a Proselyte submits to. As such it is the first obedience to the law covenant and thus a sign that the entire life is given to obedience to the Law as a covenant. Hence, to submit to circumcision is an act that says you are committing your whole life to the law as a covenant.

Paul throughout this entire book denies that anyone can be justified by "the works of the Law" which is inclusive of all the commandments contained in the Law given at Mount Sinai. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS were given at Mount Sinai. Those who preach COMMANDMENT KEEPING of the Law given at Mount sinai (ten commandments are included) preach "another gospel"!

The contrast throughout this whole book is between justification by "the works of the law" (inclusive of ten commandments) and Justification by faith and this contrast is the same that Paul contrast in Galatians 1:8-9 as those who preach law keeping for justification preach "another gospel" whereas those who preach justification by faith without law keeping preach the true gospel.

Now, you can't deal with the scriptures I have given and you won't. You will do what you have been doing all along - run, jump, pit and deny!

However, will you deal with the contextual evidence that this book is dealing more than with one single commandment (circumcision) but is dealing with ALL THE WORKS OF THE LAW given at Mount Sinai in the phrase "the works of the law"? No! Because it would expose your false interpretation.

No, you will deny that circumcision is merely representative of the WHOLE SINAI COVENANT OF WORKS even though Paul repeatedly uses the PLURAL "works" and even though he explicitly summaries "the law" that he speaking about as the "COVENANT" of law given at Mount "Sinai" rather than merely cirucmision given 430 years earlier to Abraham.

No, all we are going to get from you is more baloney, more irrationality, more absolute nonsense.

 

I just wanted to thank you for making me laugh by following that statement up with engaging him/her in discussion. :tongue3:

(don't worry, I don't claim mental stability for myself either!)

 

1. The act of Circumcision is REPRESENTATIVE ofentrance into the WHOLE COVENANT OF LAW KEEPING for justification.

a. Because it is the very FIRST commandment of the Covenant of Law that is either applied to an infant (8 days old) or to a proselyte

b. Submission to this FIRST command of the Covenant of Law is a declaration of total submission to the WHOLE COVENANT of law for justification.


2. Paul uses the PLURAL "works" not singular "work" in Galatians thus including more than mere circumcision.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.




3. Paul idetnifes "the law" he is speaking about as the "COVENANT" given at Mount Sinai which is inclusive of more than mere circumcision.


21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


4. Paul identfies "the law" he is speaking about as originating 430 years after circumcision was given to Abraham.

Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


5. The Law Paul is referring is more inclusive than mere circumcision but was the COVENANT confirmed by the use of angels and a mediator at Mount Sinai that was "added" long after circumcision was given:


Ga 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Here are scriptures that contradict Chowman's opinion that Paul is only talking about ONE law or circumcision. Indeed, Paul is talking about ALL LAWS of God given at Mount Sinai as a LAW COVENANT which INCLUDES circumcision and circumcision REPRESENTS the WHOLE LAW COVENANT as it is the FIRST act of obedience to the Covenant of Law and that first act of obedience significes that you are dedicating your whole life to obedience of law keeping which starts with circumcision.

 

When a person arbritrarily claims his response is the only valid interpretation and every contradictory response is "opinion" no matter how well validated it is by proper exegesis then you are in for a merry go round that never ends with any rational conclusions.

 

I sometimes wonder if any of us are stable Gina B. Yes sometimes the good Dr will go on a rant (in the heat of battle) and do the opposite of what he says but i believe that Doc has a good heart and believes what he says. I love the guy. He speaks as his mind thinks. There are very few that will do as he does and to me its a sign of strenth in conviction

 

So Chowmah, what will you do with the evidence I provided from the scriptures I provide out of the book of Galatians that prove Paul is speaking of ALL of God's commandments found in the COVENANT given at Mount Sinai and not merely "a" "work" singular but "works" Plural??? the covenant of Mount Sinai included the ten commandments did it not? Paul uses the words "the law" consistently from chapter 2 to chapter 4 where he introduces the Mount Sinai covenant as "the law" he has been referring to all along.

What do you do with it?

 

"The Law" given at Mount Sinai not only included the ten commandments but was the most comprehensive package of commandments ever given to man at any one single event. It is this "law" that Paul repeatedly says NO FLESH is Justified by observing! It is this "law" that Paul places into direct contrast "we are justified by faith" (Gal. 2:16) and says "the law is NOT OF FAITH" (Gal. 3:12).

Circumcision is the FIRST commandment and thus the DOOR of entrance into observing the covenant of Law as a means to obtain justification of life. Hence, the battle raged over circumcision in Acts 15 and in Galatians and in Romans 4 because if any gentile submitted to circumcision they were in fact supplanting justification by faith for justification by law keeping and that is the difference between the true gospel and "another gospel" in Gal. 1:8-9.

 

Opinion noted

 

Of course we are not justified by any works. Only through the grace of God are we justified. You should have known that Doc.

 

What I would like to know is why is it when you quote scriptures out of Galatians and make statements that directly contradict the very texts you are quoting, that your observations are scriptural, but when I quote scriptures out of Galatians correctly they are mere opinions?

You quoted scriptures from Galatians and made the inaccurate comment that "the law" under consideration was merely the law of circumcison but you made the point it emphatically did not include the ten commandments.

I quoted scriptures from Galatians and noted it was about the PLURAL "works of the law" and not merely one singular work of circumcision and that "the law" is defined contextually as the "covenant" given at Mount "Sinai" which did involve the Ten commandments.

Your incorrect comments are presented as factual and scriptural while my scripture quotations with correct comments and correction of your errors are noted as "opinion."

How does you mind operate?

 

GALATIANS 4 [21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM THE MOUNT SINAI, WHICH GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS AGAR.

Is the above scripture speaking of the 10 commandments or circumcision? Mr Walters seems to believe the 10 commandments are in there somewhere. What do the scriptures say?

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

BOTH the 10 commandments and circumcision were givin as “covenants”

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, COME UP TO ME INTO THE MOUNT, and be there: and I WILL GIVE THEE tables of stone, AND A LAW, AND COMMANDMENTS which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

LEVITICUS 7 [37] THIS IS THE LAW OF THE BURNT OFFERING, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; [38] WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES IN MOUNT SINAI, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Both covenants, the 10 commandments and the law of Moses were given at Mt Sinai.

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] MOSES THEREFORE GAVE UNTO YOU CIRCUMCISION; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day RECEIVE CIRCUMCISION, THAT THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD NOT BE BROKEN; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Well Doc, here Jesus says "Moses gave unto you circumcision" and not only that He separates circumcision (the law of Moses) and the sabbath (ten commandments). Guess that debunks your theory.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and my laws.

Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. Even though it started with Abe. Ten commandments given at Sinai. Even though Abe was keeping Gods commandments before Sinai. He OBEYED VOICE. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage” GAL.4{24}

And the winner is....

GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

Sorry Doc

 

Circumcision was truly discussed many times in the new testament scriptures. There are many more times it was discussed then you mentioned above. It was a hard thing for the Jews to believe. Could you imagine how many discussions there would be if they were told they need not keep Gods sabbath day? There would have been books and more books written on the subject.

Yet.....Not a word written about it

NOT ONE WORD

Why is that Doc