Featured Total Depravity or Free Will in this tract?

Ha Ha Ha....the entire Roman Catholic Church works like that! :laugh:

 

Maybe Evangelicals can start passing out rosaries along with their tracts

 

Glory be to the Father the Son & the Holy Spirit.....

 

I was duped by this ignorance for 20 years. What happens is that someone will present the facts of the gospel in an ambiguous manner, then misrepresent the grace of God and access to that grace.

They misrepresent the "why" Christ died, replacing purpose and accomplishment with motivation. He did it because He loves you, instead of He did it to take the punishment for your sins and save you from the consequences of your sins

Or they misrepresent the purpose and accomplishment, replacing substitutionary atonement with "to restore you to a relationship with God" instead of He did it to take the punishment for your sins and save you from the consequences of your sins

The way it's presented, hope in Him is replaced with hope in a prayer, or hope in a generic display of God's grace:

You're a sinner, Christ lived a perfect life and died on a cross "for you" so that you can have a relationship with God. And if you'll pray a simple prayer, God will "forgive" you and you'll have eternal life.

But scripture declares that Christ died on my behalf, to bear my guilt and redeem me from the consequences of my sin. And that my hope of eternal life must rest solely upon Him. That I must stop trying to do it myself, and find confidence only in what He's done in my stead.

I was raised in church, but was 28 before I learned that. Before that, I was praying for "forgiveness" and hoping that my prayer would appease the wrath of God.

 

Well the Scripture does say those who call upon the Lord shall be saved (not are saved) so this would be considered a prayer for redemption.

 

Were you saved when you prayed this prayer without understanding?

 

Pardon my lack of proper citation, I'm on my phone, not near my resources.

You're right. The scriptures do say that. However, it's a very poor translation.

Also, the context is not conversion; instead, it's an Eschatological salvation in mind. Just reference Romans 10:11, which says "whosoever believes in Him will not be put to shame."

That's an OT quotation. Also found in chapter 9, I believe in verse 23. That OT verse is Eschatological. Then see 1John 2:28, that we should not be put to shame at His appearing. Eschatological.

Then verse 13, whosoever "calls upon" the name of the Lord. Call upon comes from a single Greek word "epikalesetai". It's a compound word having three parts, not two.

Epi - on, near, around, upon, next to, etc
Kaleo - to call
Setai - middle voice, directed toward one's self.

This third part is missing in English translations, maybe because it might feel redundant because of not seeing the context.

In other words, it could be looked at two ways:
1) whosoever shall himself call upon the Name of the Lord
2) whosoever shall call upon himself the Name of the Lord, or call himself by the Name of the Lord

#2, either way it's rendered, fits with the confession mentioned in verses 9-10

When we confess Him before men, we have called His name upon ourself. Or, we have called ourself by His Name.

Read Matthew 10, where Jesus said "whoever confesses Me before men..." and "whoever endures to the end...."

What does confession have to do with enduring? Read John 9, where the blind man is healed and the Pharisees (I think) want to know who healed him. His parents would not confess Jesus, for fear of suffering persecution.

Same with John 12, I think verses 41-42, where many Jewish rulers believed upon Him - but would not confess Him for fear of persecution.

Romans 10 is about the reward for suffering with Christ. This goes all the way back to 8:17, that we are joint-heirs with Him - IF we suffer with Him.

He said in Matthew 10 that we would be hated for His Name's sake.

But if there was still any thought that Rom 10:13 espouses "asking" for Him, verse 20 should dispel that notion - I was found by those who did NOT seek Me, and I was made manifest to those who did NOT ask for Me.

I could literally write a book about the abuse of Romans 10, all because people aren't satisfied preaching the gospel and trusting God to co very the heart. People want to see something tangible.

Absolutely not.

I was hoodwinked. We are justified by faith, not by begging. Actually, asking displays a LACK of faith that God has done what He's promised.

If I write you a letter saying that I'll pay off your house if you simply believe in me to do it, would you call me on the phone and ask me to pay off your house?

If you did, it would demonstrate that you did not believe my promise.

Read Rom 4:21-24, where Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. Then it was credited to him as righteousness.

Fully persuaded. Confident expectation. Wholeheartedly assured. That's the faith of scripture. It's on the inside. It's hope. It's conviction. It's the only access to the grace of God.

Not by begging

 

James, allow me a brief moment to share my experience of grace with you. I was 10 years old. We were just coming out of a Thursday night Bible School meeting at church. My Mom was driving us home and conviction fell on me. I knew I had to go back and I told her so. Consider it the need of a child.

We went back to the church, but everyone was already gone. She asked if I could wait and I said 'No,' so we went to my grandfather's house. He was sitting in his recliner watching TV when we got there. We walked in and I told him I was lost and needed to pray. He turned off the TV, everyone knelt in the living room and we started praying.

Before he was finished with his prayer, I was already up hugging my Mom and grandmother. I was saved, and still am. The peace of salvation came to me during the prayer. It wasn't my grandfather's prayer that saved me. I was praying my own prayer, even at 10 years old. I was, as Paul wrote, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

If I'm reading you right, you say the prayer is completely unnecessary to salvation. While I agree that the prayer itself is not what saves a person, for me it was the vehicle to that assurance. After all, we're told to pray without ceasing. Individual prayer can most definitely be a strength to someone during the time of their salvation.

 

I find the translation just fine.

Asking the Lord to forgive you is a lack of faith???

So your telling me that you did not believe Jesus Christ was Lord? Then why were you praying to Him? Is there any other way one knows they are saved except by the Spirit crying ABBA Father?

 

The issue I have with your testimony is that you seem to give more weight to an experience than what scripture says. I'm careful to say "seem" because that's how it comes across to me.

I had several experiences along the way. First, at age 6. I went to the front of our church and said I wanted to be saved. So the church preacher asked me a half dozen questions - are you sorry for your sins? have you told that to God? Have you asked forgiveness? Would you like to stop doing those things? Do you want to live for Jesus? Have you asked Him to come into your heart?.....then with a thunderous voice he said !!! S A V E D !!!

I've actually had people tell me that according to Romans 10:13 I was saved that day. But I know better. Why do I know better? Because scripture trumps experience. And scripture does not bear out any notion that Romans 10:13 fits into a conversion context.

And scripture trumps the overactive imagination of a presumptuous preacher. Scripture says that God is the One who justifies.

And, scripture also says very plainly that forgiveness, justification, and credited righteousness is to the one who "believes in" Christ. That's something that presumptuous preacher never bothered to investigate. And the plain truth is that I never believed in Him until I was 28 years old.

I had an experience then, too. And hundreds of others between 6 & 28. And they were not all the same. So which one should I rely on for truth? ZERO. Our experiences need to be in subjection to the word of God, not the other way around.

But I'm curious, why you shifted. The issue is a conversion prayer - namely, what might I do to have eternal life?

So why cloud the issue with instructions which were meant for those who have already been justified? What does post-conversion assurance have to do with a prayer which purportedly precedes conversion?

See, I'm talking about that split millisecond of passing from death to life. What's required on my part? Is there something I must do? Or is it like Romans 4:4-5? Or Romans 4:21-24?

Or how about Acts 10, when Peter preaches, and proclaims forgiveness of sins to everyone who believes on Christ. He forgot to mention the part about asking Jesus to come into their hearts. But even more amazing is that "while he was still preaching" the Holy Spirit came upon those gathered.

See, I believe you're relaying your experience with historical accuracy. I just don't give it any weight on its own. Scripture is the authority. Otherwise, we may as well take Joseph Smith to be a true prophet. He had an amazing experience.


And I'm not saying that a prayer is unnecessary for salvation, I'm saying that preaching sinner's prayer conversions is a false gospel, offering false hope and false assurance. Sinners prayer is a hindrance to the gospel.

Now, I believe it's possible that some have mistakenly thought they were saved at the time they "prayed a prayer", and then hung around long enough to where they eventually relied solely upon Him for redemption and atonement.

It would be similar to someone in the Church of Christ being baptized. They believe they access the grace of God through that work. And their hope is resting upon that work. But if they hang around long enough, they just might end up relying completely on Christ.

 

You find the translation of "call upon" just fine because that's the bill of goods you've been sold. Then you'll go to any length to preserve your tradition, even denying sound explanations.

And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Tony. Why are you leap-frogging over to post-conversion issues? If it's post-conversion, then it has no place in a conversation about an unbeliever at the moment before he's passed from death to life

 

Oh THank You :thumbs:

 

Brother James,


What does the usage of prayer accomplish, in your opinion? Is a sinner calling upon God for salvation an evidence that His grace is already at work in their life? I ask this in all sincerity, w/o baiting...just wanting your view...

 

Good questions, and my answer is mostly opinion. Second one first, if it's possibly evidence of God working in them.

As far as evidence goes, there are a few teachings scattered throughout Christendom which carry the notion:
Charismatics say that speaking in tongues is evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit
Calvinists say that obedience to God is an evidence of genuine conversion.

There are others, too, but let me note something about these two.

In these lines of thought, evidence is the second half of a cause-and-effect phenomenon. But if the "cause" is something God is doing, then the "effect" is guaranteed to happen whether it's mentioned or not.

I've said to Charismatic folks....if tongues is evidence of God's work, then you don't need to teach it before it can happen.

I've said to Calvinist folks....if good works are evidence of saving faith, then those good works are guaranteed to happen whether you teach them or not.

By the same token, if a "sinner's prayer" is evidence of God working in someone, then they would pray a prayer without being told. It would happen all on its own because it would be the inevitable fruit

It could be said that I was praying at the time of my conversion, and that is true. But not in the sense most people would think. 3 times I had read a book which explained the gospel, and I was trying with all my might to reject it. I just couldn't get this notion of salvation being an act of rescue. A crediting of righteousness apart from works? Ridiculous, I thought. And bestowed freely as an act of grace? Hogwash, right?

So I was trying to argue with God about it. Trying to convince Him how unfair it seemed. That Christ would rescue me by dying in my place, apart from anything I do? I remember trying to reason this out with God.

So in that sense, I was a sinner who was praying. But I wasn't praying to receive anything. I was offended by the preaching of the cross, and i was trying to convince God that it seemed like an unfair and ludicrous notion. But I couldn't get around what the scriptures said.

By grace, credited righteousness, justification by faith, apart from works, believe upon Christ, etc

Every argument I tried to make was rebutted by something in scripture. And through that 30-40 minute episode, I became convinced of the gospel , convinced of the cross, and for the first time in my life I relied entirely upon Christ and His sacrifice as my eternal life.

So would my arguing constitute a sinner's prayer? Did I need to be taught to try to have an argument with God? Should I teach others to try to reenact the scenario, and teach that following a scripted reenactment will result in eternal life?

And that leads to your first question, what does this "sinner's prayer" accomplish? When conversion is tied to saying a prayer, it leads to misplaced faith and a false hope. We could swap the work of a prayer for any other type of work, and the result would be the same

Maybe if I give a thousand dollars I can be saved
Maybe if I get baptized I can be saved.
Maybe if I adopt a child I can be saved.
Maybe if I take communion I can be saved.
Maybe if I memorize a dozen scriptures I can be saved
Maybe if I wash somebody's feet I can be saved.
Maybe if I say a prayer I can be saved


See, there are any number of works that could replace a prayer. And if that's the case, does it matter which work? But the scriptures say if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works. And to the one who worketh not, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Any time we tie together God's grace and our work, we've compromised the gospel.

 

I greatly appreciate you casting doubt upon my salvation, James. My experience, which you seem to denigrate, is, in essence, the on-ramp of my life as a believer. It's the moment I came to the knowledge of Christ. You say later on that you didn't believe until you were 28. I believed at 10. Why is my experience somehow cheaper than yours?

I'm sorry this happened to you. There is a plague of pastors and preachers across the land doing this, because it makes the church and the numbers look better, but they're toying with peoples' salvation. God is not pleased with it.

Agreed, though some people take your last sentence here as evidence that people have absolutely no input on the state of their soul, which scripture does not bear out. As I said, why would Paul tell his readers to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling if they had no input in the matter to begin with? Was Paul wrong?

Please note that I'm not saying someone can get saved without praying. I cannot speak to the mind of God concerning how He saves the lost. I just know how it worked for me. I get the sense that my salvation isn't up to par for you.

Here's the deal, James...I don't rely on the prayer I prayed. My hope is not in the fact that I knelt beside my grandfather's recliner. My hope is in Jesus Christ, crucified, resurrected, leaving behind an empty grave, showing His victory, and ascended to the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us. That's my hope. Again, the prayer was a vehicle for me.

Apologies for the confusion. I guess I'll stop taking the Bible as a whole. If we're commanded to pray in our faith, why is it wrong to pray at your entry to that faith. Perhaps realization of your lost state and recognition of the need to talk to God proves out a person's "conversion." If so, then perhaps the prayer is a means of assurance from God. Of course, per what I've gathered from your comments, you can't even speak to God without being "converted" first.

In your experience, does everyone come to belief the same way you did? They don't in mine. Some people are humbled to the point of recognizing and believing. Others come to belief in their youth. The same free gift of God is offered to all, but not everyone comes to it the same. This is why I would never question someone else's experience. That's between them and God. If they stand in need of the Lord, then I believe the Lord will work it out.

I appreciate you making a tenuous connection between my experience of grace and a false religion. I wish I had the backbone to say that everyone who doesn't agree with my interpretation of things was wrong.

While you're right that there is no saving grace impart through baptism (one of the few things I think we're agreeing on), I greatly disapprove of your means of questioning my faith, James. I've not once said that anyone had to pray some rote "sinner's prayer," or that they had to answer questions from their preacher.

I've given you my experience. Instead of gladly welcoming a 'brother' in Christ, you've chosen to question my faith because it's not exactly like yours. Why does it matter to you if I prayed at the moment of my 'conversion?' I still rest in the faith, as mentioned above.

I know this will probably be taken as offensive. I'm hurt at the things you said. I don't mind debating theological issues and doctrines, James. But to have a fellow board member question my experience simply because they don't believe in prayer at conversion stings.

 

Yes. Its a lack of faith

Sure, you can have faith in a generic act of grace, that He'll *wink* and just say "hey... no harm, no foul". But that's not faith in the work of Christ. That's an appeal for an ambiguous forgiveness that God never promised to anybody.

Biblical salvation is found in the cross.

Sure, Jesus was "Lord", whatever that meant.

I was praying to Him because I was foolishly taught that if I do this and that,I would be "saved"

I didn't even know that salvation was an act if rescue. I thought "saved" meant that a person was conditionally saved from hell, placed in a position to either obey God and merit entrance into heaven, or disobey God and lose my opportunity.

And I thought that a person would become unsaved with each sin, and must perform the whole stupid ritual all over again, each time

I didn't know that Jesus is God in the flesh, or that there is a resurrection from the dead, or any Christian essential beyond one - that there is a Creator who is offended by sin.

Everything else was some warped notion that came from Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, witchcraft, spiritual warfare nuts, and whoever had a few slick words for my mom.

But I could beg for God to "save" me.

 

I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at. I don't give my own experience more authority than yours. If you go back and read what I wrote, I said on its own your experience had zero weight. Same goes for my experience(s). They only have as much authority as granted by scripture.

And I wasn't attempting to cast doubt on your faith. One thing you should know about me and the things I write. You don't need to try to read between the lines. I don't work through insinuations and innuendos. If that's what I mean, you'll be able to quote me exactly saying it.

And if what you get out of my post is not word-for-word what I wrote, you've probably misinterpreted what I wrote.

 

James....I for one understand & appreciate your directness......I wont always agree with you now but....I respect your directness. Rare these days.