Total Depravity

Chappie,

Irresistible Grace indicates that God draws until the non-elect becomes an elect person without any consulatation with the human being. This I term 'dragging people into the Kingdom by the hair.'

A Mr. Camping of "Family Radio" used this terminology of dragging sinners in by the 'hair.' He is a Five Point Calvinist. I heard it first from him.

 

And I don't mind saying that Mr. Camping is wrong about a whole slew of things. Equating all Calvinists on this board with Mr. Camping would be about the same thing as me saying all theArminians believe the same Benny Hinn does. Unfortunately, there are complete fruitcakes on both sides.

 

Not acutally. Irresistable grace states that God effacaciously calls his already elect so that they willingly and joyfully respond to the Savior. Your use of elect and non-elect is inaccurate as is your description of draggin people by the hair. God never drags anyone by the hair. That is the caricature that you have been corrected on many times.

Mr. Camping has a number of problems. He does not represent what most of us here believe.

 

Not acutally. Irresistable grace states that God effacaciously calls his already elect so that they willingly and joyfully respond to the Savior. Your use of elect and non-elect is inaccurate as is your description of draggin people by the hair. God never drags anyone by the hair. That is the caricature that you have been corrected on many times.

Mr. Camping has a number of problems. He does not represent what most of us here believe.</font>[/QUOTE]Hello

Hello Pastor Larry:
I too can see some problems with that dragging people by the hair concept. That would mean that God could not save any bald headed people. (My joke for the day) Hehehe.

A couple concerns.
If God has to use irresistible grace to save his elect, that would indicate that the elect are in fact resisting. And not mildly so, being that God has to resort to a power that overcomes their will.

But, alas; efficacious grace accomplishes its purpose and those that moments ago were wildly resisting, immediately become complacent, accepting, willing, even joyfully excited:

Ever heard of brainwashing, is God so unlovable that he has to resort to such measures. Is he not wonderful enough to deserve better than this.

This efficacious grace stuff sounds like love potion #9 to me. I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink. I didn't know if it was day or night, I started kissing everything in sight.. etc, etc.

Pastor Larry, please forgive me if I offend, as it is certaintly not my intention. And I do respect you as a man of God. But eg. does not work, it casts a negative shadow upon the glory of God. My point is to demonstrate that it can never start at point "A" and make it to point "B" without becoming inscriptural and illogical.

That day when Adam sinned, we took a horrendous fall, but God was there that day also, he loved you that day, and he caught you before you hit the bottom. You and I did reach a dept where we could not help ourselves, but God was there to catch us before we fell through the gates of hell; just as he catches us today.

You and I are in serious trouble, totally depraved; but we are not reprobates until God turns us over in this life. With God's merciful assistance, all men are capable of responding to God's offer of salvation. Yet our response can not save us, only God can do that. All is of God.

Nothing that we can do has the power to save, but that does not mean that we are excused from doing anything. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.. Do you understand mercy, it is not God doing it all for us; mercy is when we have done our very best,and it is never good enough. God will do the rest.

Nothing that I say should personally reflect on you as a pastor, chosen of God. As you have probably gleaned by now, i think that eg. is heresy. Yet I am often called a heretic, so that kinda evens things out.

Nevertheless, I love you as a brother in christ; and pray that God will continue to richly bless and keep you....

[ September 13, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

(Duplicate, deleted)

[ September 13, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

russell55,

I thoroughly agree with what you said.

Ray

 

What scriptures are the source of this concept of total depravity and its consequences upon the nature of man.

Where is it stated that man can not respond to God. Not will not, but can not...

Before we tailor doctrine to fit this concept, it should be plainly expressed in scripture.

The fact that he does not, or will not, does not specifically mean tnat he cannot.

 

I agree . . . .

The Scripture should create the concept and theology. Wrong interpretation comes when we have a 'hand me down' concept and then try to pile the Word of God around our preconceived ideas.

 

"If God has to use irresistible grace to save his elect, that would indicate that the elect are in fact resisting. And not mildly so, being that God has to resort to a power that overcomes their will."

Of course people are resiting, its part of the sin condition. And they can do no other; they are ensalved to sin. Resisting God is something done by (fallen) nature.

"But, alas; efficacious grace accomplishes its purpose and those that moments ago were wildly resisting, immediately become complacent, accepting, willing, even joyfully excited:

Ever heard of brainwashing, is God so unlovable that he has to resort to such measures. Is he not wonderful enough to deserve better than this."

Of course they are excited, they've been set free froma bondage they could never break. They were "bound" to resist God until God made it possible to do otherwise.

This isn't brainwashing. It's giving back a freedom that had been lst in the Fall. Those who are thus set free inevitably respond accordingly.

Frankly I think you are reading to much into the phrase "irressitable grace". You might think of it in terms of effectual call. Those whom God calls, answer, and not by coercion. They are enabled to respond to God as He is (perfectly lovable thank you) where before they could not. Thus enabled by the call, they respond appropriately.

"You and I are in serious trouble, totally depraved; but we are not reprobates until God turns us over in this life. With God's merciful assistance, all men are capable of responding to God's offer of salvation. Yet our response can not save us, only God can do that. All is of God."

Some problems:

1) Totally depravity means that all aspects of our beingl including thewill, are impacted by sin. That is the bondage which denies poele the ability to choose God withot His gracious intervention. So you contradict yourslef. If we can reposnd to God we are not totally depraved.

2) If our response cannot save us, if its, as you say,of God, tehn you have made a Calvanist remark. Calvanists believe that the gift of faith is not ours but God's for if it were someyhing that we could do of ourselves, then God would be saving us in response, as a reaction, not an action. His salvation would be contingent on our decision, not His sovereignty.

You sure you're not a Calvanist? Maybe not a 5 pointer, but maybe a 3 pointer?

 

Calvinism is not without it's merit, stop taking an unscriptural extremist view of the depravity of man that necessitates this irresistible grace which I have been told is not irresistible, but is rather efficacious instead. Do not present to me a God that is a respecter of persons and what's left might be on to something....

 

1) Yet you will "never" find it stated in scripture.

2) Oh, sin requires God's grace all right, but God's grace is not some supernatural respecter of persons that portrays God as unjust and without love and compassion..

3)Deny what you want, for as long as you want; it is what the evidence says it is..

4) I challenge you to illustrate what you believe scripturally and logically, using the reprecussions caused by your perversion of election..

If the word of God does not convict you of your lack of understanding, my chances are slim and none. Your knowledge of scripture has not produced wisdom.

 

"1) Yet you will "never" find it stated in scripture."

Nor, by name, will you find "free will". However you do find the things summed up by ther term "Total Dep[ravity" in Scripture. And easily. You do not however find the idea of free will. you instead find bondage of the will.

"2) Oh, sin requires God's grace all right, but God's grace is not some supernatural respecter of persons that portrays God as unjust and without love and compassion.."

No Calvanist would disagree with this. Again, you don't seem to have a true grasp pf Calvanism at all.

"3)Deny what you want, for as long as you want; it is what the evidence says it is.."

When you are able to discuss a doctrine for what it actually teaches instead of straw man carictures let me know.

"4) I challenge you to illustrate what you believe scripturally and logically, using the reprecussions caused by your perversion of election.."

It isn't hard chappie. But first you're going to have to show me you can interact with the actual doctrines and not the little warped things you put foprward as calvanist doctriones. Otherwise, frankly, I think that no matter what i say you will ignore it and fall back on your distorted little slogans. I don't have time to waste on people who prefer to try to debate what straw men.

 

Chappie,

You are correct.

Some of these Calvinists don't know the various shades of their five points that they cling to for dear life. I have been in both kinds of seminaries and smile when some deny that God can autocratically elect some to Heaven and merely--pass by the rest, as if He didn't already make His decision for both groups, as they allegedly believe. It is interesting what we can do with our brain over the years. If He has consciously saved some, God being God, would have also consciously have damned the rest, even if He quietly walks by these.

 

After the Fall humankind became depraved but not totally.

After the Fall did Adam and Eve still have a will, intelligence, and a conscience? Did they know between right and wrong?

Are sinners since the Fall, able to hear and or sense the working of the Holy Spirit on their lives? Do they understand the basic truth of the Gospel before regeneration? Do they understand the concept that Christ died for their sins and can give hope and everlasting life? Before conversion they understand it but might not believe it is even possible. God the Spirit has to convince them of these facts and move them to place their faith and trust in Christ.

The answer to all of the above questions is yes. This makes sinners not as depraved as John Calvin somehow envisioned.

 

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Pet. 2:8)

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" (2 Pet. 2:12)

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4)

Those who were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world were ordained to condemnation. However, they were not unconditionally ordained to condemnation like the elect were unconditionally ordained to eternal life. The non-elect were viewed in Adam and, therefore, consigned to eternal condemnation for the glory of His justice because of their sins. I do not know how my Primitive Baptist brethren believe about this particular subject, but this is what I believe.

 

Ray one question... Is having the knowledge of eternal life one of the prerequisites of having it?... Or is the knowledge of eternal life a benefit and a blessing bestowed upon God to those who do? What about those who don't have the knowledge of their Salvation are they lost worlds without end?... If they are can you give me scripture and verse that says they are?... Brother Glen

 

Primitive Baptist... "AMEN"... Brother Glen

 

Having a knowledge of salvation is an absolute requirement before a person can be saved, except in some isolated Scriptures in the O.T. that strongly, hint that some of the prophets were saved even before birth.

We are all learning more and more about the blessings of our salvation now that we are saved and being made fit for Heaven. Who can explain grace well enough? How can we thank Him enough for so great salvation?

To the best of my knowledge, all those remain in unbelief and/or do not have a knowledge of salvation are in a lost condition. My Scriptural backing: [John 3:18 b,c]

I know there is a verse in the N.T. that hints at the fact that if people do not know about Christ they are not held responsible for their sin. I don't know the verse, but some of the brethren do know where it is, I think. I never understood, for sure the exact meaning of the verse.

So, until I understand that verse I believe that all who don't know of Jesus are still lost. If this is not true we are safer not telling people about the Lord and then they would allegedly not be responsible for their sins.

 

Freewill (KJV)
Lev 22:18
18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; (KJV)

Lev 22:21
21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. (KJV)

Lev 22:23
23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted. (KJV)

Lev 23:38
38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all "your" freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. (KJV)

Num 15:3
3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock: (KJV)

Num 29:39
39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings. (KJV)

Deut 12:6
6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and "your" freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: (KJV)

Deut 12:17
17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: (KJV)

Deut 16:10
10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: (KJV)

Deut 23:23
23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth. (KJV)

2 Chr 31:14
14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things. (KJV)

Ezra 1:4
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem. (KJV)

Ezra 3:5
5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD. (KJV)

Ezra 7:13
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their "own" freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. (KJV)

Ezra 7:16
16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem: (KJV)

Ezra 8:28
28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers. (KJV)

Ps 119:108
108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. (KJV)

Now, show me the words "total depravity", and then the words that illustrate it; and the words "efficacious grace", and the scriptures that illustrate it...

[ September 17, 2002, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]