Total Depravity

It is the word "din" and means more likely to rule. He was not striving. It is a term regarding the change in dispensation. Where previously the Holy Spirit ruled through conscience, God was not always going to do that. He was soon going to rule through human government.

Again you show how much your theology is not driven by Scripture. None of this can be found there. Yet Scripture does affirm that God is calling men to himself in salvation. They are called the elect and they are that way from the beginning. You must let Scripture drive your theology. Everything you have said above is a logical construct (but not a necessary one). Rather than subjecting your mind to Scripture, you tell us what you think. That is not a good way to do theology.

 

Seems it depends on root language:

Genesis was originally Hebrew

Which definition fits the context?

The Hebrew seems to say that God will not always be straight with man. Where the Greek seems to say that God is losing patience with man.

[ January 11, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

I am not sure what relevance the Greek "agonidzomai" has here. The OT was written in Hebrew, as you say.

 

My electronic bible dictionary lists both for the same word in the same scripture, so I posted both.

In context, the Greek seems the more accurate definition.

Hebrew,(Diyn) "my spirit cannot remain on a straight course indefinity with human beings...so I'll shorten his life to 120 years.

Greek, (agonizomai)My spirit cannot continue to strive indefinitely with man...so I'll shorten his life to 120 years.

[ January 11, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

But the OT is not in Greek. Therefore, Greek has absolutely no relevance. The OT is in Hebrew. I don't know why your electronic Bible would give a Greek word and definition that is not used in Genesis 6:3.

... Unless you looked up the English word "strive." But you cannot study that way. You should study from the Hebrew to English, not from the English to Hebrew. An English word may translate many Greek or Hebrew words. The only thing that matters is the single word it translates in a given context.

 

Do any of these explain why God would limit the life of man to 120 years?

 

Here is a lexicon definition of diyn:

Diyn TWOT - 426
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
deen      Verb
 Definition
1. to judge, contend, plead
a. (Qal)
1. to act as judge, minister judgment
2. to plead a cause
3. to execute judgment, requite, vindicate
4. to govern
5. to contend, strive
b. (Niphal) to be at strife, quarrel

Does that help? Every place I look has a similar definition....don't know where you Bible dictionary got theirs...

 

Wow, I'm goin' to demand a refund, the one I bought is totally inadequate.

 

Why don't you try blueletterbible.org? Type in the verse you are interested in and when it comes up, click on the blue box with the letter "C" (I think), for the lexicon definitions. I learned of that site from someone here....

[ January 11, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Thanks Russell55, Appreciate the tip.

 

We've been through this before. "If" does not necessarily imply choice, and even when it does imply choice, it does not necessarily imply ability.

1. If there are no clouds during the day, it is sunny.

The clouds do not disappear by choice and the sun does not choose to shine.

2. If one lets go of a rock in mid air, it will fall.

The rock has no choice but to fall.

3. If you have faith as small as a mustard seed and say to the mountain go fall into the sea, it will be done for you.

If you can "choose" to have faith, then prove it to us all by tossing a mountain in the sea. Let us know when you've done it.

 

Any variant usage other than 'to strive as at law' {doon} in Genesis 6:3 does not explain the Word of God as noted in the 1/11/03 post--1:46 p.m.

 

Only in your small world Ray. It is again amazing that someone using Strong can be so authoritative on the matter.

The best interpretation is the meaning of "rule" as a reference to teh dispensation of conscience where God mediated solely through the Holy Spirit in the conscience. The wickedness of man was increasing and God said, I am not going to do it that way much longer. He instituted human government as the way that he would not mediate. This sense makes much better.

The only refutation of your view needed is your own contention that the Holy Spirit is still striving in the hearts of men and women to persuade them to salvation. It seems that your refute yourself.

 

Being in the image of God, we do have the ability! That is why man has dominion over all the other life on this planet. We have the ability to choose, why wouldn't we have it? If we did not have the ability, we could not analyze, reason, or any other of man's abilities. Man would never have survived without the ability to choose.

If/When, If/Who, If/Why, If/What, If/Where, and If/How, always imply choices.

If this happens? If it doesn't happen? "If" is a question that requires an answer, and there is no law that says everyone must answer the question the same way, thus choice!
For example, IF Jesus did not come to live among us, and die for our salvation, would the elect be saved?
Yes!, their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life!
No! There is no other name under heaven whereby we may be saved!

IF 'yes' is true, would any others also be saved? NO! Their names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

IF 'no' is true, the implication is that not even the elect can be saved.

But, if Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, then not only the elect get saved, but any and all who choose to believe in Jesus, even on His name get saved!

are the clouds and sun made in the image of God?

Newton supports this! But does a rock have a brain?

Done, how do you think Hawaii got there? It used to be a volcano in Oregon, near Saint Helens. I didn't have enough faith that day to get it all the way to it's sister "Japan".

Never give up your ability to choose!

 

If Strong is not sufficient then perhaps you will be so kind as to lead us all to a greater more authoritative similar resource.

Strong's is what I have, but I am willing to invest out of my many millions into another source with greater authority! Since you are an expert please advise!

 

Well shucks, this surely shoots down another idea of Total Depravity, without the Holy Spirit's interaction in man's spirit, how is it possible for regeneration to occur unless man does it under his own power? Since, under Total Depravity, it is not possible for man to save (regenerate) himself, salvation cannot occur because the Holy Spirit is missing from the equation!

Salvation: In your fallen state, Hear the Word (form of hearing does not matter), determine with the help of the Holy Spirit that the Word is true, and that it applies to (convicts) you. Believe, even on the name of Jesus, Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, You are now regenerated. Confess and repent from sinning, Continue to sustain your belief (faith) in Jesus by learning His way from Scripture. Increased knowledge of the word produces greater faith, so "study to show thyself approved..."

Don't worry, NEVER doubt, because if you should fall by sinning again, get up, go to the Father and confess your sin, HE is faithful, and Just to forgive you your sin and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat,...until you are face to face with Jesus where there is no longer any temptation to sin.

[ January 12, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

I would suggest getting William Vangemeren (ed.), New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. It can be used fairly well with Strong' concordance numbers. It is 5 volumes and can be picked up for around $100. The reason I said what I did is because Ray constantly throws his "doctorate" around and then quotes "Dr James Strong" as a source for lexical studies. If I quoted strong's in a legitimate PhD program, I would be laughed out of the program. It is not that Strong's is bad. It is that Strong's is incomplete for detailed study. For most people, Strong's is fine. But it does require knowledge of its limitations.

As for choice, "if" does not require choice and does not imply that. There are many passages of Scripture that bear that out. But again, you must deal with John 6 and Rom 8 where your contention is mutilated by the text of Scripture. These passages use words of ability that cannot be undervalued, as you appear to be doing.

 

Of course we have the ability to choose. But what the I and (I assume) Calvinists claim is not that we cannot choose, but that we are limited in what we are inclined and able to choose.

I don't see how you can persist in saying so. If you fall off the Empire state building, you will die of deceleration trauma. (And, contrary to the rock example, I assume you have a brain.) It is possible that you chose to fall off (jump), but the statement doesn't mean you chose to fall off or chose to die. Whether or not you were involved in the decision is additional information not conveyed by the statement.

Similarly, "If you believe, you will be saved" simply says that those who believe will be saved. It says nothing about our ability or desire to believe of our own free will. That is additional information not conveyed by the statement. You interpret it to be there, but that's coming from you, not the text.

Again, you've come to your conclusions about free will because you've added information to the text. You assume that because Adam was made in the image of God that this means we all still have free will with respect to salvation. It says nothing of the sort in the Bible, this is simply your interpretation.

Done, how do you think Hawaii got there? It used to be a volcano in Oregon, near Saint Helens. I didn't have enough faith that day to get it all the way to it's sister "Japan".</font>[/QUOTE]That would be a great joke if it weren't on par with the rest of your Biblical exegesis.

 

IF is always a question! Every question has a variety of answers, the one the questioned person wants to give, the one that another might give, the one the questioner wants to hear, and the one not thought of.

If you do....This!
If you don't That!

Same question different answer! The action makes the difference and answers the question!

This is the same as consequenses = action

If you believe in Jesus you shall have eternal life!
If you don't believe in Jesus you'll be cast into the lake of fire!
Believing is the cool response!

 

Huh? If starts a hypothetical STATEMENT, not a question!