Tribulation

One resurrection and judgement? NO WAY!

OT Jews believed in one resurrection because the Church was still a mystery, they were unaware of a separate resurrection for the dead in Christ and the transformation of those living at the time of Christ's appearing.

1 Cor. 15:22 says all die in Adam, so in Christ all will be made alive or resurrected "in his own turn." Taking turns means there will be a series of resurrections and not just one. Christ was the "first fruits" of the resurrection followed by "those who belong to him'" which is the Church. This resurrection of the Church does not include OT saints or NT saints before Pentecost or the Tribulation saints.

In 2 Tim. states there will be two judgments of the living and the dead together, one when Jesus appears to the Church and the other at his earthly kingdom.

The first judgment of the living and dead together takes place at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Church is raptured in 1 Thess.4:14-18.

The second judgement of the living and dead together takes place at the Second Coming to earth
when the "sheep" (righteous ones) inherit the kingdom and the "goats" (cursed ones) will go away to eternal punishment (Mt. 25:31-46).

Do not include the resurrection of the Tribulation saints for all of them are dead before they are judged (Rev. 20:4). None of them are alive when judged.

Do not include the judgment of the wicked dead at the Great White Throne a thousand years later for all of them are dead when they are judged (v.5).

After death comes judgment, only the rapture of the Church and the judgement of the nations at His Second Coming are the living and dead judged at the same time.

Resurrections:

1. Christ the first fruits and those resurrected when Christ was crucified.
2. When Christ returns for the Church.
3. The righteous dead at the Second Coming. This is the first resurrection of only the dead.
4. The wicked dead at the Great White Throne.

 

Thank you.

Yes, i know i do, ah, er, well, yes,
you are right about "someone".

 

I'll ask you again here Ed, and maybe I'll get an answer. You have the New Heavens and New Earth after the Mill. Kingdom. So is this the same New Heavens and New Earth found in Is 65 and 66? Is it also the same one found in II Peter 3?

 

There is a principle in the interpretation of Scripture, which some call the Synthesis Principle, which states:

Obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text.

Now Jesus Christ clearly teaches in John 5:28, 29 the following:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus Christ is obviously talking about a General Resurrection and Judgment. This passage does not address the sequence of the resurrection but the Apostle Paul does, telling us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that the dead in Christ shall rise first. The wicked shall be raised afterwards consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

The Apostle Paul also tells us in Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be "a" resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Jesus Christ in the passage John 5:28, 29 states that the hour is coming when all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth. He doesn't say that some shall hear His voice but that all shall hear His voice.

The Apostle Paul in the Passage from Acts states that there shall be a resurrection. "A" means one, a man, a dog, a resurrection; one man, one dog, one resurrection.

There is not a single passage in Scripture justifying more than one resurrection following the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Old Regular: //There is not a single passage in Scripture
justifying more than one resurrection following the resurrection
of Jesus Christ. //

I agree, but the key word is "single passage". If their
are two passages that show two different resurrections
then it is up to us to count ONE, TWO, ...



\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Let me help you out Dr. Bob.

Here is what John Gill writes:

be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage… but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this; and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says {m}, that
``never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''
And indeed, all this came upon them for their impenitence and infidelity, and for their rejection and murdering of the Son of God; for as never any before, or since, committed the sin they did, or ever will, so there never did, or will, the same calamity befall a nation, as did them.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024&verse=021&next=022&prev=020

Spurgeon agrees:

C. H. Spurgeon (1834- 1892):
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since."

Read Is. 13:10, then get the context in verse 1 and 17, then tell me why this language is literal.

Bingo!


John Gill
and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Matthew 26:64 Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment;

More of John Gill:

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened…

That is, those days of tribulation which commenced at the siege of Jerusalem; and therefore cannot refer to the times before it, and the shortening of them by it, which were very dreadful and deplorable through the murders and robberies of the cut-throats and zealots; but to those after the siege began, which were very distressing to those that were within; and which, if they had not been shortened, or if the siege had been lengthened out further,

there should no flesh be saved;

not one Jew in the city of Jerusalem would have been saved; they must everyone have perished by famine, or pestilence, or sword, or by the intestine wars and murders among themselves: nor indeed, if the siege had continued, would it have fared better with the inhabitants of the other parts of the country, among whom also many of the same calamities prevailed and spread themselves; so that, in all likelihood, if these days had been continued a little longer, there had not been a Jew left in all the land.

But for the elect's sake;

those who were chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world, to believe in him, and to be saved by him with an everlasting salvation; both those that were in the city, or, at least, who were to spring from some that were there, as their immediate offspring, or in future ages, and therefore they, and their posterity, must not be cut off; and also those chosen ones, and real believers, who were at Pella, and in the mountains, and other places, for the sake of these, and that they might be delivered from these pressing calamities,

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024&verse=022&next=023&prev=021

Here is some of Matthew Henry:

I recommend reading his entire commentary on Matt 24. Amazing what our forefathers believed pre-Darby.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

v. 29–31. The sun shall be darkened, etc. 1.

Some think this is to be understood only of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation; the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars, denotes the eclipse of the glory of that state, its convulsions, and the general confusion that attended that desolation. Great slaughter and devastation are in the Old Testament thus set forth (as Isa. 13:10; 34:4; Eze. 32:7; Joel 2:31); or by the sun, moon, and stars, may be meant the temple, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, which should all come to ruin. The sign of the Son of man (v. 30) means a signal appearance of the power and justice of the Lord Jesus in it, avenging his own blood on them that imprecated the guilt of it upon themselves and their children; and the gathering of his elect (v. 31) signifies the delivering of a remnant from this sin and ruin.

 

Sorry Grasshopper, the blood of
27 Million martyrs of the 20th
century (1901-2000) cry out from
the ground: "tain't so".

And please don't say the deaths
of one Million Jews superceeds the
death of 27 Million Christians (mostly
gentiles).

 

Ed, I'm sure you just missed the question and are not trying to avoid it so I'll ask again:

 

Good morning Grasshopper:

Some of your comments you made above defy common reasoning like the last paragraph in the Nov. 24, 9:49 post. Spiritualizing the Word results in confusion and distortion of the facts. I think your problem is eating too many marijuana leaves

Isa. 65-66 is not the same as 2 Pet. 3. Please read Isa. 42:9, 48:6 where God intends to create new things.

Read Isa. 65:17 about the new heavens and new earth, this will be the climax of the things created by God. Verse 18 begins with "but" or however in spite of this new creation God will create "Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy" (NIV) during the Millennium before the eternal state of the new heavens and new earth. From verse 18 to the chapter's end and verses 9-10 God reveals conditions in Jerusalem during the Millennium.

Israel had forsaken the LORD in Isiah's time and and still does today (65:1-8, 11-12) therefore God would hide his face from his chosen people and extend grace to the Church. Instead of the Hebrews as his chosen servants the Gentiles would become his servants as recorded in verses 13-15. "My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts" (v. 14) is being fulfilled today in Rom. 15:9-11. "You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse" (15) is being fulfilled today in Gal 3:10. Also in 15, "but to his servants he will give another name" as Christians.

Let me know if there are any other parts of chapters 65-66 you want clarified.

 

Ed Edwards has presented his viewpoint on tribulation so I thought I would throw in my three cents worth.

A basic premise in this essay on tribulation is that, in general, the lot of the ‘true believers’ in this life is one of tribulation in keeping with the words of the Lord: In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world [John 16:33]. A second premise is that the Apostle John wrote the Book of Revelation primarily for the comfort of the first century Christians undergoing intense persecution and that the Book of Revelation is also written for the comfort of the Saints of all ages. There is one truth taught in the Book of Revelation that cannot be debated, in the end the Saints of God emerge victorious in and through Jesus Christ.

In the letters to the seven churches we read of the tribulation of the Saints at Smyrna [Revelation 2:10]. When the fifth seal is opened we hear the cry of the martyrs for vindication [Revelation 6:10]. In the passage from Revelation 7:13-17 we read of those in heaven who have come out of great tribulation. Distress and trouble for most, if not all, true believers in this life are an observable fact. Tribulation for the Saints of God is the promise of Jesus Christ. I believe that the distress or tribulation experienced by the Saints alone may be categorized as follows:

1. The tribulation that is common to all mankind in the current natural order.

When Adam and Eve sinned the natural order of the universe was changed [Genesis 3]. The ground [the earth, the universe] was under a curse because of Adams sin. The Paradise of Eden was exchanged for a world of strife, of sickness, of deprivation, and in the end, physical death. Since then death has been as certain as life, with the sole exceptions of Enoch and Elijah. The great natural disasters, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes are no respecter of persons. As the patriarch Job wrote [Job 14:1], Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

2. The tribulation that is the result of Gods specific judgments on the world.

Not only has mankind, including God’s elect, suffered because of God’s judgment of Adam’s sin, mankind throughout history has suffered because of specific judgments of God against sin. During many, but not all, of these judgments God’s elect have also suffered. Israel, as a whole, was spared most of the effects of God’s judgment of Egypt [Exodus 7ff]. Yet during the entire period covered by the Book of Judges there is no indication that the elect within national Israel were spared during the judgments of God. When God halted the rain in Israel at the hand of Elijah [1 Kings 17ff] only Elijah, insofar as is recorded, was spared distress and that at the hands of the widow of Zarephath [Luke 4:24-26]. Yet God told Elijah [1 Kings 19:18] I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal. Later, when God used the Babylonians to punish Judah, His elect were also carried into captivity.

The Scripture history of the New Testament Church is brief and I can think of no examples to demonstrate the above premise. However, secular history since the 1st century will show that the Christians suffered along with the general populace, e.g., the Black Plague of the middle ages, the influenza epidemic during World War I. Perhaps the most recent example would be the judgment of God on Nazi Germany. No one would argue that the Saints in Germany were spared during its destruction.

3. The tribulation that is the natural consequence of being the people of God in this world.

The tribulation that is of most concern to the Saints is that which they endure because they are the people of God. That tribulation has and may occur because of both overt and covert persecution by the world. Chapter eleven of the letter to the Hebrews presents a brief summary of the tribulation of the Old Testament Saints. They were persecuted because they looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

In the New Testament also we have not only Scripture that warns of tribulation [John 16:33, Acts 14:22, Romans 5:3, 2 Peter 4:12-14] but examples of those persecuted for their faith. Our Lord taught in John 15:20; If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. Stephen, the first martyr died at the hand of the Jew, Saul, later to become the Apostle Paul [Acts 7:54-60]. James, the brother of John, was next, dying at the hand of Herod [Acts 12:1-3]. Paul himself became the victim of persecution, first at the hands of the Jews [2 Corinthians 11:23-33] and then Rome [2 Timothy 4ff]. Paul, in the midst of tribulation, echoes the teaching of Jesus Christ [John 16:22] as follows:

2 Timothy 4:18, KJV
18. And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Although tribulation is the lot of the Saints of God in this life there are a number of expositors who believe that the extent and intensity of tribulation will increase as the time approaches for the return of Jesus Christ. This belief is consistent with the progressive parallelism shown in the Book of Revelation. It should be noted, however, that the extent [i.e., the number of people involved] of the tribulation could be increased without an increase in the severity of the tribulation. It is difficult to imagine that persecution of the Saints at any time in history could be more severe than that experienced by the early Christians at the hands of Imperial Rome. As described in Schaff’s Church History “some were crucified, some were killed by wild animals, and some were covered with pitch and burned as torches for the amusement of the mob”. Similar persecution has occurred throughout history, particularly during the period of the Spanish Inquisition and the centuries of the Dark Ages when the seeds of the reformation were being sewn. The writer of Hebrews describes the persecution of the Old Testament Saints as follows:

Hebrews 11:37-38, KJV
37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38. (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

The Scriptural justification for increasing tribulation depends on the interpretation applied. The Prophet Daniel speaks of terrible tribulation associated with the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead.

Daniel 12:1,2, KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus Christ speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem tells us:

Matthew 24:15-22, KJV
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

H. N. Ridderbos [Matthew , page 445, the Bible Students Commentary Series] writes that verses 21 and 22 not only picture the tribulation at the destruction of Jerusalem but also picture the tribulation of the last days. There is one significant factor that will increase the extent of the tribulation the Saints will face in the last days. The sixth chapter of the Book of Revelation closes with these words For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? In the succeeding chapters of the Book of Revelation additional details of the coming judgment of God against the unbeliever will be unveiled as the seventh seal is opened leading to the sounding of the seven trumpets and the emptying of the seven vials. As the judgment of God is poured out on the unbeliever it is more than likely that the wrath of the unbeliever will be poured out on the Children of God.

 

Those in the last paragraph are Matthew Henry's.
Perhaps he was smoking weed.

So you literalize all prochecy including Is13:10? Circumcision of the heart, writing the Law on your heart, is that spiritualizing? Or should we interpret those as physical?

I prefer smoking it.

No? Notice what Peter says:

II Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise , look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter says the New Heaven and Earth is a promise from God. Where, if not Is 65 and 66, does Peter get this promise of a New Heaven and Earth?

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create : for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

The "but" doesn't start a new subject. It contrasts the difference between the Old and the New. The "create" in verse 18 refers to the "create" in 17.

Where is the Millinnium taught in Is 65? You jump from The New H and E to the millinnium which isn't in the context of Is 65. Verses 18 and following describe conditions in the New heaven and earth.

Now for the New Jerusalem, there is no guessing what this is. The angel tells John exactly what it is.

Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem , coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Why would a literal city be described dressed as a bride?

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem , descending out of heaven from God,

I think it is quite clear the New Jerusalem is the Church. What else is clear is that Is 65 and 66; II Peter 3; and Rev 21 all speak of the same New Heavens and New Earth. Which is of course the New Covenant.

 

Hey OldRegular, well done, I'll give you 3 bucks for it.

Questions:

Do you consider the "Children of God" suffering from the "wrath of the unbeliever" to be the Church?

Will the Children of God or saints be on earth when the vials are poured out?

 

When Jesus died on the cross the sun was darkened for three hours.

Mt. 27:45 - "From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land." From noon until 3:00 P.M.

 

I believe in a general Resurrection and Judgment consistent with John 5:28, 29, therefore, Saints, the Children of God, will be on earth until that time comes. These Saints will be changed consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. After the General Resurrection and Judgment there will be a New Heaven and Earth where Triune God will dwell eternally with His people consistent with Revelation 21:1-4.

 

If you think 2 Peter 3:10,12-13 of new heaven and new earth is not same as Isaiah 65-66.

2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST."

Isaiah, the prophet wrote, and predicted there will have new heavens, and a new earth, it was written about 800 years earlier before John, the Beloved wrote the book of Revelation. Isaiah makes no mistake about the new heaven and new earth. Isaiah was moved by the Holy Spirit, as he written. Isiah 65:17-20 telling the same thing as John, the Beloved saw the vision of new heaven & new earth of Rev. 21:1-4.

The context of Isaiah chapter 65 and 66 say nothing about "a thousand years". Isaiah 65:17-20 describe about the future perfect eternality condition, same as Rev. 21:1-4 telling us.

Of course, I am aware of premils' interpreting Isaiah 65:20 -"...for the child shall die an hundred years old;...", they saying, this verse proves us, there will be more length of age to be lived during millennial kingdom.

They misinterpreting what Isa. 65:20 actual talking about.

Let's read Isa. 65:20 carefully: "There shall be NO MORE thence an infant of days, NOR an old man that hath not filled his days:" I want to pause on the first part of verse 20. I understand the first part of verse 20 talking about people shall become immortality, no more dying again. This verse 20a is refer to 1 Cor. 15:51-55 speak of our body all shall be changed into immortality. Our body shall be glorified to be like Christ's. No more dying in our body again forever and ever. That would be at Christ's coming with the last trumpet.

Isa. 65:20a makes no mistake speak of immortality, verse 20a refers with Rev. 21:4 says, "...there shall be NO MORE death,..." Obivous, it speaks of immortality.

That would be follow Christ's coming for rapture, so, that all of us who alive and remain shall be changed into immortality, then we shall have eternal life, no more dying again.

Now back to Isaiah 65:20. Let's continue read the last part of verse 20 says: "...for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

I understand the first part of verse 20 speaks of believers shall have immortality. The last part of verse 20 speaks of unbelievers as sinner.

Why a sinner shall died "hundred years"? Because, a sinner shall be judged.

Romans 5:12 tells us, Adam sinned and he died, so, death pass upon All people to died because of sin.

Death is the picture as eternality punishment, because of not believing on Jesus Christ.

Life is the picture as eternal life, because of believing on Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 65:20 does not saying a person shall live much longer during millennial kingdom. The last part of verse 20 speak of a sinner shall die, because of judged according to Hebrews 10:27.

Also, you can notice there is parallel compare of Isaiah 65:17-20 with Isa. 66:22-24 both are repeat, more details.

Isa. 66:22 tells us, Lord promises us, He shall create new heavens and the new earth, it say nothing of "a thousand years". That verse 22 is the picture of future eternality condition.

Also, I am aware of some premils intepreting Isa. 66:23 to prove us, that there will have moon, and will continue to observe sabbath during millennial kingdom. Also, premils saying there is a word says, 'FLESH' in verse 23. They saying this verse prove us, that people shall still have flesh, and not yet have immortality, will continue to repopulating the world.

We should be aware that a word 'flesh' have more than two meanings. It defines, body, person. In Greek word, it defines, body, nature as distinguished from the spiritual, the opposite of spirit, human nature, man, all men, all mankind.

I understand Isa. 66:23 says, "shall ALL flesh come to worship before me", it speaks of all people shall come to worship Christ. This verse does not saying, people do not have immortality. This verse telling, all people shall worship Jesus Christ forever and ever. Also, verse 23 tells us, all Saints(believers) shall worshipping Jesus Christ forever and ever.

Then, next verse - Isa. 66:24 says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have trangressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

This verse 24 speaks of unbelievers shall be judged, and shall be cast into everlasting fire. This verse is refer to Mark 9:44,46, & 48 - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Isa. 66:24 is speaking of all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

The context of Isaiah chapter 66 say nothing about 'a thousand years'.

Isaiah chapter 65 and 66 telling us, about the future eternality destiny where two groups will be faced.

Reading Isaiah 65 and 66 is not difficult.

2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, we are looking forward for new heavens and the new earth shall be create by follow the coming of the Lord, not supposed 1,000 years apart.

I told you in the past, that I promise that I will start new topic to discuss on Revelation chapter 20 more deeper relates with millennium issue soon. But I delay it so long time. Revelation chapter 20 is a deep and explaining what it is talking about.

Often, premils intepreting Revelation chapter 20 into literally.

Understand, the book of Revelation is filled with symbols, figuratives, and spiritual things. But, also, several things in Revelation are also literal. Depend on what the grammar or sentence talking about.

I will try to start new topic on Revelation 20 on Tuesday and Wednesday, when I am free. Probably, OldRegular can telling you the details on Revelation chapter 20, if he have time to do it.

I am aware of Revelation chapter 20 is a hotly debate between premils and amils, on what they interpreting it differently.

Everyone should read and understand what Revelation chapter 20 talking about. I really want to discuss on Revelation chapter 20, but it requires me lot of time to explaining to you what this chapter talking about. I hope I will able to explain on Revelation chapter 20, when I have free time to do. Be patience with me.

Also, throughout all books in the Bible say nothing that Christ shall reign in old Jerusalem for a thousand years on earth follow Christ's coming.

Old Testament saints, and very Early Christians believed there is the only one resurrection and one judgement day at Christ's coming. Many of them were not dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism was not developed till 19th Century, it caused Christians into divisions because of new teaching. Thanks to John Darby.

Later on Tuesday or Wednesday, I will continue discuss more about millennial issue.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Just a few comments, for the benefit of others.

 

You need to take a closer look. Get the context, which is found in verse 1 and 17.

Fall of Babylon(539BC)
Isaiah 13:1The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Pretty clear isn't it? Babylon which Amoz did see.

Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Here you have the description of the judgement on Babylon.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

The Medes were the instrument God used. Perhaps you believe the Medes will return to the scene in the future, otherwise this is a long past event.

No, it contrasts the old heaven and earth to the new heaven and earth.

Those are very nice scriptures, but where is it mentioned anywhere in the text that these are describing the millinnium? Hint, it doesn't. You just assume it does.

Where is this eternal New Jerusalem found in scripture that you say is different than the one in Rev 21?

So we are not the bride of Christ?

You didn't answer the question of where Peter gets is New Heaven and Earth if not from Is 65 and 66?

 

POSTIE

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not a postie. I'm much more heretical than that.

Thats because they are not to be taken literal. The OT is full of this metephoric language. Have you ever seen it rain cats and dogs? Do you use the LaHaye study bible by chance? Are you related to ED?

You can't be serious. I guess America will be using arrows to defeat Babylon with. By the way my NKJV doesn't say America, it still says Medes even in Jer:51. You do know the Medes came and destroyed Babylon don't you? Coincidence I guess.