true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!

It is all about God:

from the Articles of Faith Union Association Of Old Regular Baptist:

 

*sigh.. here comes another one just like the other ones; and unfortunately that isn't a reference to any thing spiritually positive.. especially in light of your childish PM's.

 

Cool.. sound exactly like what the majority of non-Cals holds.

 

Time for you to be growing up? Anything childish in a pm came from your side, son.

Have a good day.

 

*sighing yet again...

Here ya go..

As I said.. childishness

 

So, you are suggesting that Paul was "willing" as he was on the road to Damascus to persecute actual believers?

I am convinced that the two groups will have to agree to disagree on this issue, but for the life of me, I've not found the man who is "willing" apart from God coming to that person FIRST and making Himself known in some form or fashion. The Arminian doctrine says this as do both the Calvinist and Amyraldian doctrines. It is only when one finally arrives at Pelagian (or semi-Pelagian) doctrine that we eliminate God as a first cause in salvation.

In other words, God makes us willing. Whether that is through His grace, through His demonstration that we are sinners, through His love, mercy, vengeance, or any of His other attributes, it is ALWAYS God first, then man second. And I can't find where God dictates that our salvation encounter is dependent on our own actions as the first cause in salvation.

 

Amen... Well said! :thumbsup:

 

One of the reasons he's on my ignore list :thumbs:

 

You bet! You seem to forget the 'fact' that Paul was seeking to be obedient to God whom he loved. Christ opened his eyes to fact He 'was/is' God. So yes, as says even Reformed and Arminian views.. until one is WILLING God will NOT save anyone. They must believe in order to be eternally saved, and if they believe then they are willing.

Agreed.. now please show who on this board has made any statements contrary to this, in that man must come to God FIRST, or make the first move apart from any divine aid or grace. Fact is, you wont

Exactly, but as far as I know, you wont find any making that assertion.

Again, please show where anyone has stated anything after this fashion.

However my point still stands.. God does not save us until we are willing and never before. The very fact that our salvation is not complete till we believe establishes the fact that we are indeed involved in our salvation and this epitomizes the very definition of 'synergism' or mans cooperation with God to be saved because regardless of how little or much man must participate (even by faith) man participates for the Arminian as well as the Reformed position

 

I never received this name calling, "mature" pm from you. Only saw it on here.

Congrats. :applause:

I rest my case.

 

Sent as 11:11 am.. ask the admins to verify it. I copy/pasted the sent mail to here.

 

...as stated, I never received your "mature" pm.

Lets end it? I said what I said to you, it all still stands.

Handle it and move on like a man?

 

Here is my current belief on this topic.

...Bob

A Treatise of the Faith and Practices of the National Association of Free Will Baptists

Chapter 10: Faith (p. 10-11)

STATEMENT

Saving faith is an assent of the mind to the fundamental truths of revelation, (108) an acceptance of the Gospel, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, (109) and a firm confidence and trust in Christ. (110) The fruit of faith is obedience to the Gospel. (111) The power to believe is the gift of God, (112) but believing is an act of the creature, which is required as a condition of pardon, and without which the sinner cannot obtain salvation. (113) All men are required to believe in Christ, and those who yield obedience to this requirement become the children of God by faith. (114)

REFERENCES (p. 28)

(108) Hebrews 11:6: He that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb. 11:1: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. John 5:46, 47; Rom. 10:9.

(109) Romans 10:10: With the heart man believeth unto righteousness. Gal. 5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith. 1 Cor. 12:8, 9.

(110) Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. John 3:16; Rom. 4:20-22; Eph. 3:12.

(111) James 2:17: Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Gal. 5:6; 1 Tim. 1:5.

(112) Philippians 1:29: Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ...to believe on him. 2 Pet. 1:1; Eph. 2:8.

(113) John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mark 16:16; John 8:21, 24; Heb. 11:6.

(114) John 1:7: That all men through him might believe. Gal 3:26: Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Acts 10:43; Rom. 5:1; John 3:15.

​

 

Wow, it amazes me at just how 'ungodly' and un-christlike some believers are and their presumption that such actions are acceptable as well. You are credit to the world and it's worldliness, but unfortunately a discredit to believers.

For the sake of those who wish to have at least a somewhat Godly interaction with other believers, I will refrain from answering your asinine comments further, unless you wish to publically apologize and seek forgiveness of a brother. Now back to you interesting topic of the OP.

 

You keep trying to bypass what I am saying.

No amount of restating in harder or softer terms negates the fact that both the reformed and Arminian position has man cooperating with God in his salvation whereby God will only save a man if he is willing (ie. permits or allows).

Monergistic.. God does it all - 100%.. yet if man has ANY part whatsoever where his salvation, in any way, is involved or dependent upon action from him... it is not 100% of God but a cooperation of God and man.

 

You're blind to your own words and attitude.

As I said:

...as stated, I never received your "mature" pm.

Lets end it? I said what I said to you, it all still stands.

Handle it and move on like a man?

You have much to apologize for, so drop the stones. I'd use the same adjectives to describe you, but that would make me like you.

Go back, take a look. Open your eyes.

Also, you've changed your tone since I called you on it. Self-redemption on your part. Good boy.

Start apologizing and admitting your side, then we can talk.

 

I don't know why you bother Allan. He knows what you are saying, and he knows it is true, it is impossible not to be true. But your chances of getting a Ref/Cal to admit this are slim and none.

They want to have it all, and are forced to argue direct contradictions. They say salvation is 100% of God, but admit man must believe. They have to admit this, because even a Calvinist knows there are dozens of verses saying man must believe to be saved. When confronted, they revert to the first argument and say salvation is 100% of God. When you point out the scriptures that say man must believe, they say they agree, when you point out this shows man must cooperate, they go again to the first argument. It is an endless cycle. But they will never admit they believe a contradiction, at least I haven't seen it yet.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

 

So, let me make sure I have this right. Paul as a Jew was ALREADY SAVED and serving God willingly before the Damascus Road incident? Sure you want to go that route?

Paul was not obedient to Christ. The very name "Christian" was given to people who the Jews thought followed some false teacher. Paul's task was to wipe those people from the face of the earth. He later went on to write that he was "chief among sinners" and other statements that indicated that he realized that he was NOT seeking after the true God that saves before Christ had His way with him.

Huh? Man cannot come to God first. God is ALWAYS first. I've said that, as have over half the people on this board who hold to a divine sovereign view of God.

I know that you do not self-identify with Arminian soteriology, but here is what Articles 3-4 of the 5 articles of the Remonstrance say to this issue (they disagree most fully with you!).

Of course, the Calvinists would certainly stand on a doctrine that states most succinctly that GOD IS FIRST in all things, including salvation.

Are you sure you wish to stand by your statement that MAN has to come first in any salvific order? Seems like most of Christendom would be in opposition to you on that point.

You just did... Don't you realize what you are saying? How is what you wrote above materially different from these two positions cited below?

From CARM:
http://carm.org/pelagianism

From CARM (Semi-Pelagianism):
http://carm.org/semi-pelagianism

I am making the point, rather firmly, that God DOES INDEED save us before we are willing, and that our willingness is the surest sign that God is already at work! That is the position of the church, historically, until the advent of the heretical Pelagius, and later Arminius (who's theology almost died on the vine until resurrected by Wesley, the founder of Methodism). I find it rather surprising that a Baptist would argue so vociferously in favor of a doctrine that is not Baptist in origin or nature.