1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Truth about 2Thess 2 and the Day of the Lord

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Question from another thread

    2 Thess 2
    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


    That text tells us that the "Coming of the Lord" and "our gathering together to Him" (rapture) all happen with the event of the "Day of the Lord". And that this does not occur until after the "man of sin" the antichrist as John calls him - appears. Where this form of antichrist "man of sin" is yet future - and is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

    The "Day of the Lord" begins with 2nd coming (and resurrection) and rapture of the church. It includes the 1000 years and then at the end the 2nd resurrection and lake of Fire where the earth's surface is destroyed and so also - all the wicked on it.
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,195
    Likes Received:
    117
    If I support abortion does that help Satan or not?
     
  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'll post from the other thread which has gone seriously off-topic.

    2t2 comes after 2T1 where Paul describes what is clearly the coming of the Lord Jesus for judgment of the wicked & glorification of the persecuted saints.

    2T1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

    Paul teaches that certain events must happen before that final day of the Lord:

    2T2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    Now, as far as the Ts were concerned:
    some had died (see 1T4) and Paul had assured them that they would not miss out on blessing.
    1T4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus
    They were asleep in Jesus & when Jesus comes for resurrection, living & dead will be glorified, & ever with the Lord.

    He had also told them that that Jesus' Olivet prophecy would be fulfilled to the uttermost:
    1T2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    But in 2T1 they were still suffering persecution & no sign of Jesus coming to judge the unbelieving Jews.

    Also Peter had to remind his readers:
    2P3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?

    In Hebrews 3 & 4 we read the warning that the Jews had 40 years to enter God's rest, or would suffer God's wrath for their unbelief.

    God is gracious & longsuffering, but his patience will come to an end. The Jews will NOT be allowed to continue mocking Jesus & his warnings, warnings repeated by the Apostles.

    Jesus coming to judge this generation that rejected him would certainly take place as prophesied. John repeats Jesus' prophecy against those who pierced Him in Rev. 1:7. But, not only had some of the Thes. believers died, it is likely that some of the Jewish leaders had also died. Herod had had his own private judgment. (Acts 12:20-23)

    Jesus had given clear signs concerning the destruction in his Olivet prophecy. Paul by inspiration adds to those signs in 2T2.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When we read 2T2, we have read 6 preceding chapters. The Ts had the advantage oven us of Paul's personal teaching - 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

    The events that would happen before the day of the Lord would be centred on Jerusalem & the temple. He will occupy the temple & exalt himself as God in defiance of Jesus. His followers will believe their own delusions.

    Why was God delaying judgment of the rebel Jews? And when would the man of lawlessness be revealed? And what & who were holding back the rebellion?

    God is gracious, & James & many Christians continued to witness in Jerusalem. The had the 2 witnesses, Moses & the prophets. Jesus had warned:
    Luke 16:30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

    The Jews would rebel against the Romans. The believers would flee the city as Jesus had warned - now nothing would hold back the final judgment of the rebel Jews. Moses was a closed book - dead - but would soon be vindicated when Jesus came in clouds to effect the judgment.

    As Moses, & Peter warned:
    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
     
  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Peter in 2P3 is answering the scoffers who are challenging Jesus' prophesied coming to destroy the city & the sanctuary - the central elements of the Old Covenant. Noah warned about the flood - & it happened; Jesus warned about the destruction in his Olivet prophecy - it would happen soon, in the lifetime of those who rejected him. Jesus also warned about the passing of heaven & earth - that will happen at an unknown time - a thousand years or a day after the rebellion, etc prophesied in 2T2.

    -----
    I think the "he" is James, who continued his witness in Jerusalem as the leader of the church there in the power of the Holy Spirit until he was martyred by the "powers of lawlessness". Just as Sodom continued until Lot was taken out of the way, so Jerusalem continued until the church was taken out of the way.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If you derail every thread over to the abortion topic - does that help Satan or not?? is that your question?
     
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,195
    Likes Received:
    117

    You quoted: Let no one in any way deceive
    you.

    Would you be deceived if you support abortion? This is an easy question, I get the feeling you are avoiding it.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Have you imagined to yourself "again" that I support abortion??

    Did we already discuss the fact that if all Catholic judges on the Supreme Court could get themselves to oppose abortion - we would not have this problem??

    Are you concerned with actual facts - in your effort to derail this thread that is on 2Thess 2??

    As you already know - I have already started an all-abortion-all-the-time subject thread just for your favorite topic. Why are you trying to drive this thread into the ground with your off-topic efforts... again...
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Now here comes a breath of fresh air... thanks!

    NOW We are talking!!

    Nice!! :)

    Indeed - and they had a few thousand MORE years of suffering of the saints.. yet to come.

    Good point

    [/QUOTE]
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,195
    Likes Received:
    117
    "Have you imagined to yourself "again" that I support abortion??"

    Continuously. Just tell us abortion, murdering children is a sin, then.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Question - were you "almost about" to post on the actual topic of this thread?.... yet? :)

    Did we already discuss the fact that if all Catholic judges on the Supreme Court could get themselves to oppose abortion - we would not have this problem??
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Good point.

    -----

    Agreed about James in charge in Jerusalem as we see in Acts 15. But Paul is writing in 2Thess 2 about events and apostacy in the Christian church far in the future to his letter.

    Notice what we have in 2T1 as context for 2T2

    2 Thess 1
    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    2 Thess 2
    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    That future event bring relief to all the saints -- even the saints of Paul's day --

    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire
     
  13. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I disagree. Paul is writing about the temple & what will happen in it before the destruction.



    We need to note that 2 The. 1:10 is Jesus final coming, whereas 2T2 is what must happen before that final coming - the Jewish rebellion & total takeover of the temple which was still standing in Jerusalem awaiting the fulfilment of Jesus' Olivet prophecy.

    The Thessalonians & other living believers would hear of that destruction. As John writes in Revelation,
    ...... must shortly take place.....for the time is near.
    Once the temple is destroyed, the day of the Lord will come an an unprophesied time. See the closing section of Jesus' Olivet prophecy & 2 Peter 3.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Certainly it is the case that 2T1 - describes the event of the 2nd coming itself and also it is true that in 2T2 - Paul is listing a number of key events that have to happen at some point before the 2nd coming.

    But the church at Thessalonica was primarily gentile. They were not living in Jerusalem and the events in 2T2 don't seem to have any particular reference to Jerusalem. It is a broad span of over 2000 years of future history that lay between the time of Paul and whenever the 2nd coming actually happens - which is still future to our own day.

    I cannot find any reference in 2T2 to the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70A.D.
     
  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The beginning of the Thessalonian church is recorded in Acts 17. As usual Paul began by preaching in the synagogue. The unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles & repeated the lie used against Jesus - he makes himself a king. (John 19) In 1T2, Paul writes of the Jewish opposition to the Gospel:
    14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    That is a reference to the soon to come judgment against the Jews according to the Olivet prophecy - on this generation. That was the existing prophecy of the events to take place centred on the Jerusalem temple - the temple of God.

    The Jews were, of course, not concerned about Jesus being king, but were setting up themselves for the apostasy against God & a rebellion against Caesar.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    True - and in the synagogue he finds both Jews and Gentiles - and once kicked out of there (after 3 Sabbaths or so) - they continue to follow Paul. But the gentiles were not at all concerned about living in Jerusalem -- even gentiles Christians in Thessalonica would be tickled to have all the Apostles and leaders in Jerusalem - move to Thessalonica! I suppose they would view that as a huge plus to have the Christian church based out of their own town.





    Agreed.

    But 2Thess 1 is not limited to 70 A.D. -- it goes all the way to the second coming with Jesus revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to the wicked.

    And 2Thess2 continues with that theme taking us through time all the way to the 2nd coming.

    What is interesting is that in 2Thess 1 Paul says that the "relief" to be gained at the 2nd coming is for all the saints - even himself.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    34,045
    Likes Received:
    839
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Revelation is NOT concerned with Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, as it is mainly occupied with the Antichrist, False world wide religion aposty, and the war at end of this age!
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The first half of the chapter of 2Thess 2 does cover what you are saying - but the quote above is from the second-half were Jews living in Paul's day are mentioned and ends with this statement in that quote "16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost."
     
  19. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,690
    Likes Received:
    387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Jews around the empire would have been reading Law & Prophets regularly. The prophets, except Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied before the Babylonian captivity.

    All the supposedly unfulfilled "end times" OT prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel should IMO be understood as encouraging the exiles to keep the faith in the knowledge that God would restore them to the land - as he did.

    I consider 2 Thes 1 is concerned with the return of the Lord Jesus for final resurrection & judgment.

    2 Thes. 2 is concerned with what must happen before 2 Thes 1, i.e. AD 70 which was the next prophetic event to take place according to Jesus' Olivetprophecy.

    That quote is from 1 Thes 2, & again is a reference to the Olivet prophecy - the Jews are not just unbelieving but viciously persecuting believers in Christ, & stirring up the Gentiles to persecute believers. Judgment had to come to fulfill Moses prophecy as quoted by Peter:
    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

    I see TWO great judgments - the AD 70 judgment that absolutely & visibly ended the Old Covenant vindicating Jesus' prophecies, his Apostles & his Gospel, and a final judgment at Jesus return to resurrect & vindicate & eternally glorify believers, & resurrect & eternally condemn the unbelievers.

    We need to look in detail at 2 Thes 2 to see the interpretation of that prophecy.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Certainly that is a true statement.

    Agreed. "revealed in flaming fire - dealing out retribution". That happens at the 2nd coming -- still future to our day.

    2 Thes. 2 is concerned with what must happen before 2 Thes 1, i.e. the second coming.

    I agree that AD 70 is right upon them .. but Paul points forward in 2Thess 2 to the destruction of all the wicked on planet earth. And there was no second coming of Christ in A.D. 70. That was not Christ returning to take the saints home. IN John 14:1-3 "If I go to prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you to myself".

    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

    (That is rapture language it happens at the 2nd coming and still future to our day)

    2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
     
Loading...