Truth In Advertising

[Major B]

Tom,

And you know that a lot of them have no real concept of Calvinism. And yes, I am a 4-point "Baxterian" Calvinist--kind of like Calvin himself, but that is a topic for another forum.

 

[Major B]

A general rule of honesty is this: I someone I am dealing with on any issue lacks the technical vocabulary to fully and accurately ask the questions they need to ask, it is imcumbent on the one with the technical vocabulary to make sure the air is clear.

 

[Victorious]

A general rule of honesty is this: I someone I am dealing with on any issue lacks the technical vocabulary to fully and accurately ask the questions they need to ask, it is imcumbent on the one with the technical vocabulary to make sure the air is clear.

But what if the one with the technical vocabulary can't read minds? Just askin'.

 

[Major B]

But what if the one with the technical vocabulary can't read minds? Just askin'.

I have known lots of people who were arminian and not aware of it--I can't think of anyone who is Calvinist and does not know they are.

The whole point of this thread, from the beginning is that the pastoral candidates who are Calvinists are more well read in theology (though not more well read in the Bible).

 

[Victorious]

I have known lots of people who were arminian and not aware of it--I can't think of anyone who is Calvinist and does not know they are.

The whole point of this thread, from the beginning is that the pastoral candidates who are Calvinists are more well read in theology (though not more well read in the Bible).

Tell it to Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards!

Well, in my experience, the Calvinist Prebyterians are the most learned biblical scholars (although I disagree with them in some areas.)

I know your comment was an insult, but the truth is, I know more non-Calvinist bible illiterates than any other. The Doctrines of Grace ARE completely based upon scripture. Because you disagree with the scriptural interpretation Calvinists, you call them less biblically literate? LOL!

 

[Major B]

Tell it to Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards!

Well, in my experience, the Calvinist Prebyterians are the most learned biblical scholars (although I disagree with them in some areas.)

I know your comment was an insult, but the truth is, I know more non-Calvinist bible illiterates than any other. The Doctrines of Grace ARE completely based upon scripture. Because you disagree with the scriptural interpretation Calvinists, you call them less biblically literate? LOL!

Insult? Hardly--young Calvinistic seminary grads are more well-read in theology than most lay people. And, some lay people are Biblically ignorant. However, I know many godly lay people who are true Bible scholars, and whose Bible literacy level is 50 years ahead of any kid frest out of seminary.

And, in case you have missed it, I am a Calvinist. Calvinism is not the issue in this thread. The issue is a tendency (which apparently is somewhat widespread) of young seminary graduates who are five-point Calvinists, who, in order to have a pastoral ministry job mislead churches as to their beliefs, causing subsequent upheavals in the churches.

 

[Trotter]

The issue is a tendency (which apparently is somewhat widespread) of young seminary graduates who are five-point Calvinists, who, in order to have a pastoral ministry job mislead churches as to their beliefs, causing subsequent upheavals in the churches.

Any man who would mislead a church to get a "job" (I use the quotes as, by his lying to get in, it is obviously not the place he was called to) is unfit to lead that church or any other church for that matter. Call me simple, but a pastor is called to a higher standard than lying to get himself a paycheck. Even if the question is never asked, the man should be honest enough about his beliefs to ofer the information up front. He may not say, "I am a five-point Calvanist," but he should explain his beliefs and doctrine clear enough so that the laity can understand.

No one asked our pastor directly regarding this issue, but he was upfront with his beliefs and clearly expressed them to the search committee. Because of this we have had no surprises or bombshells. But, then again, all men of God should be honest about these things anyway.

 

[sag38]

Things go south when a pastor stands in the pulpit and casts doubt on congregants salvation who don't agree with the five points or tells them that they are denying Biblical truth. If you are going to do that then go find you a church that is fully committed to five point Calvinism. If not, don't stand in the pulpit and condemn those who don't agree. I personally know of one very large church where this happened. It nearly destroyed the church. If you go to a church that isn't fully committed to dancing in the tulips then work side by side with both side in being used of God to spread the good news and when we get to heaven we will find out which side was right.

 

[Tom Butler]

The OP is about the pastor-candidate's candor about his Calvinism. But any pastor search committee which does not know about this has not done its job with due diligence.

A search committee should ask the candidate for a complete, thorough doctrinal statement, written in detail. Much of the time, one's view of Calvinism will be apparent in that statement. If it isn't then a direct question about it is in order.

The committee should also be aware of a candidate's eschatology and ecclesiology. These may or may not be hot-button issues in a particular church, but the committee should know if they are, and should find out what the candidate thinks.

Further, the candidate should also ask the same questions of the committee. In no case should a new pastor spring his beliefs on the church without warning.

 

[SBCPreacher]

I know that this is not the purpose of this thread, but there are also many churches that mislead pastoral candidates too. Often, they paint a "rosier" picture about the church than is true, and it's not until after the pastor moves in that the truth is known.

What is needed is truth from the candidate and the church.

 

[Major B]

I know that this is not the purpose of this thread, but there are also many churches that mislead pastoral candidates too. Often, they paint a "rosier" picture about the church than is true, and it's not until after the pastor moves in that the truth is known.

What is needed is truth from the candidate and the church.

Pulpit committees often hide the Truth.

Charley

 

[TomVols]

Pulpit committees often hide the Truth.

Charley

Boy, don't get me started. I could write a multi-volume work on it.
One volume would just be the lies they told me about. One chapter would have the lies the committee admitted to. Another chapter would have the lies they admitted to, which turned out to be lies in and of themselves :tear:

 

[exscentric]

Sometimes lack of information:

Friend candidated at a church that had two buildings side by side. One was the church and the other the Sunday School building.

Accepted the call. Saw some problems in the Sunday school, at next board meeting he said he would like to talk a bit about the Sunday school. Head of deacons said, "Oh, no the Sunday school is not a part of the church, they are a separate organization. We have nothing to do with how it runs."

:thumbs: You never know when you know what you need to know.

 

[Tom Butler]

I know that this is not the purpose of this thread, but there are also many churches that mislead pastoral candidates too. Often, they paint a "rosier" picture about the church than is true, and it's not until after the pastor moves in that the truth is known.

What is needed is truth from the candidate and the church.

This is why a search committee will be wise to draft a candid profile of the church, in writing, outlining its strengths and weaknesses, and where the majority of members stand on a number of doctrines and practices. If a church has a strong number of Reformed members, a pastor-candidate needs to know that, too, especially if he's not Calvinist. Here in Western Kentucky, many churches still retain some Landmark tendencies. The church needs to inform the pastor-candidate. What's the predominate eschatology? If it's dispy, tell it plainly.

Are there potential troublemakers in the church? Say so (but probably not in writing).

We would expect a pastor-candidate to do the same. Let's practice what we preach.

 

[sag38]

Sometimes, the real power players are not on the pulpit committee and that can cause problems.

 

[Major B]

Sometimes, the real power players are not on the pulpit committee and that can cause problems.

Sometimes a very small minority in the church can control the process by acting like babies if they don't like the candidate.

 

[sag38]

How very true. I've been there and played that little game. Notice I said, "been there." Don't want to go through that again.