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TULIP of Scripture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Nov 18, 2011.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Do you hold to all five points, or to four, and leave the "L" out?


    If you hold to all five, then, in reality, salvation is never offered when the atonement is limited to the elect only. There is no way getting around this point, Brother.

    BTW, how is the wifey, and the baby in waiting? I will be engaged in prayer for you, the missus, and the "bun in the oven".
     
    #41 convicted1, Nov 19, 2011
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I view the atonement like this. You can decide if I'm a 5 pointer or not. I make my statements based on how I see the Bible teaching them and not really conserned if they match how Calvinists say them.

    1. It's of infinite value sufficient to pay for all the sins of all people.
    2. It's only efficient for believers(elect).
    3. It's only intended to save those that believe(elect) and never those that never believe(non-elect).

    The atonement is limited in efficiency only to the believers(elect). I assume you would agree with that. There is no faithless salvation. Salvation is offered to all. Calvinism doesn't teach that God will only save the elect because he will reject the others that come, but that God will only save the elect because only they will come. God doesn't intend to save those that die in unbelief. You probably agree with me there.




    She's doing good. Thanks for asking and your prayers. She's due in February.
     
    #42 jbh28, Nov 20, 2011
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    First off, I really enjoy "typing" to you. :thumbs: I get a good "vibe" from you when I converse with you. You seem to be a four pointer, with no "L", but I could be wrong.

    The way I view the "L" is more to do with it's "aim" than it's power. The atonement is powerful enough to save every person that has ever lived on God's footstool. But, He only intends to apply it to those who believe(I am sure we are in harmony here).

    Now, in the Calvinist's model, the "L" is never intended for the non-elect, so it's aim was directed towards the elect only, and only they will ever truly receive the redemptive power of the atonement. Then, eventhough the atonement's power could save all, in the "C" model, it's only aimed at those who God foreordained before the foundation of this world that it's aimed at.
     
    #43 convicted1, Nov 20, 2011
  4. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    If salvation is only for a select few that God has pre-chosen, then why did He say, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? The ONLY way there is any such thing as pre-elect is that God in His wisdom and foreknowledge has elected to save all those who call upon His name. He did NOT go through the world and pre-select some to be saved and others to go to hell; God is NOT that calous, unjust and unloving.

    People are saved because they call upon the Lord for forgiveness and salvation, as I did on May 18, 1963. God knew that I would do that and chose to save me because of that foreknowledge--not because He saw that I was worthy to be saved. NO one is worthy to be saved, and we are saved ONLY by God's grace, AND becasue we call upon Him for salvation.

    Atonement is NOT limited except that it is limited to those that God knows will call upon Him--and NOT because He pre-elected some to salvation and the rest to damnation.
     
    #44 Jon-Marc, Nov 20, 2011
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Jbh28, why do you continue to post falsehood? Jesusfan said, "Jesus died as a propiation of the sins of the entire World" which is true but not Calvinism where Jesus died as a propitiation for the sins of the elect. He misrepresented Calvinism, and you denied it and continue to deny it. Go figure.
     
    #45 Van, Nov 20, 2011
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Jon Marc,

    I almost agree with everything you said, thanks. I would rephrase the first sentence in the last paragraph this way: Atonement is NOT limited except that is limited to those that God summons into salvation by directing the HS to set us apart in Christ, after crediting their faith as righteousness -- and NOT because He pre-elected some to salvation and the rest to damnation.

    But even with my nit, still a great post, thanks.
     
    #46 Van, Nov 20, 2011
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Two Views of the TULIP, revised

    Two Views of the TULIP

    The TULIP is a weed in the field of scriptural truth, deceiving with its appeal to worldly values.

    The TULIP should be a beautiful flower of God, spreading the points of its pedals above the bedrock of scripture from which it arose.

    “T” stands for Total Depravity; mankind is unable to respond to the gospel unless his core fallen character is altered by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit.

    "T" should stand for"Totally in Adam" totally corrupted with our "old man" (Adamic) nature and totally separated from God and therefore dead in our sinful state in Adam.

    “U” stands for Unconditional Election; we were saved or damned from eternity past for all eternity without regard for our faith in Christ, our faith was given to us because of God’s choice, we are saved by election and not through faith.

    The "U" should stand for Unlimited Reconciliation; God is reconciling mankind to Himself, one person at a time, by first accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but then causing those whose faith He credits as righteousness to be placed spiritually in Christ and receive the reconciliation. Therefore, we who are in Christ, beg the lost as ambassadors of Christ, "be reconciled to Christ."

    “L” stands for Limited Atonement; Christ died only for the preselected elect, chosen as specific foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world, the opportunity for the salvation of those not preselected is non existent.

    "L" should stand for Limited Atonement: God has provided reconciliation for all mankind, but not all men have received the reconciliation. When we are individually chosen and set apart based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we are placed spiritually in Christ by God, being united with Christ and made alive, but this atonement or "at one ment" is limited to those God puts spiritually in Christ.

    “I” stands for Irresistible Grace; the preselected elect are enabled and compelled to respond affirmatively to the gospel, by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit that both overcomes the preexisting Total Depravity and gives the gift of faith so that we think we trusted in Christ when in fact God did it all.

    “I” should stand for In Christ; when we are spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, we are converted, given a new heart with our faith hard wired into our soul, and with a clear conscience such that we arise from the baptism into Christ’s death a new creature in Christ, anointed for good works and then indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a helper and pledge to an inheritance of Eternal life.

    “P” stands for Perseverance of the Saints; those individually chosen before the foundation of the world are compelled by Irresistible Grace to remain faithful to God, such that once a person is saved, they will never fall away from their inheritance of eternal life.

    “P” should stand for Perseverance of the Saints; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, is “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

    It is time to put aside the TULIP of Calvinism and proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.
     
    #47 Van, Nov 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2011
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Isn't that called biblical theology?
     
    #48 gb93433, Nov 20, 2011
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It seems that some calvinists I have met ignore the two natures of man as created by God.
     
    #49 gb93433, Nov 20, 2011
  10. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Van, do not say that I'm posting "falsehood." I've quoted Jesusfan correctly, you have not.

    Here's his ENTIRE sentence.

    Pretty clear from the Bible that Jesus died as a propiation of the sins of the entire World, in the sense that it had infinite worth, but that ONLY those who come to Him for their sins to be covered and atoned for by the Cross are the saved by it, and those are the ones chosen and elect out beforehand by God!
     
    #50 jbh28, Nov 21, 2011
  11. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Because whosoever calls on the Lord will be saved. Nobody will call upon the name of the Lord and be rejected because of not being elect. That's not what election teaches. Election comes after total depravity. God elects because no one comes.


    As one that doesn't believe in double election, I'll only respond do one thing. It wouldn't be unjust or unloving at all. If God never offered salvation, he would still be perfectly just to send sinners to hell. Salvation is not deserved nor the chance to be saved. So to say that God would elect people to hell and not give them a chance to not have to pay their deserved punishment wouldn't be unjust in the slightest. Now, I believe God doesn't elect people to hell, but that's because I don't see that in the Bible, not that it would be unjust because it wouldn't be.
     
    #51 jbh28, Nov 21, 2011
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Why would you want to deny what is taught all through the bible?
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Nov 21, 2011
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Brother Jon Marc, in the Calvinist model, the whosoevers=the elect. They are the only ones who will call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. I don't agree with this assessment, but this is how the assess it.
     
    #53 convicted1, Nov 21, 2011
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In the famous passage of John 3:16 the word whosoever in some English versions has done a lot to confuse folks. It simply means believing ones as verse 15 says also.

    Who are the believing ones? The elect of course. No one else. No non-elect person will go to glory. Here's where I get say biblical truths that sound like a broken record to con -- Only the elect have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. No one else will be going to Heaven aside from the ones the Lord chose before the creation of the earth.
     
    #54 Rippon, Nov 21, 2011
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    New International Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    King James Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    New King James Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

    New American Standard Bible
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

    The Living Bible
    John 3:16, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    New Living Translation
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    John 3:16, "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life."

    English Standard Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

    Revised Standard Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

    New Revised Standard Version
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not perish but have eternal life."

    New International Readers Version
    John 3:16, "God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son. Anyone who believes in Him will not die but have eternal life."

    The Message
    John 3:16, "This is how much God loved the world: He gave His Son, His one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in Him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life."

    New Century Version a.k.a. International Children’s Bible
    John 3:16, "God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believes in Him may not be lost, but have eternal life."

    God’s Word Translation
    John 3:16, "God loved the world this way: He gave His only Son so that everyone who believes in Him will not die but will have eternal life."

    Contemporary English Version
    John 3:16, "God loved the people of this world so much that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who has faith in Him will have eternal life and never really die."

    New English Bible and Revised English Bible
    John 3:16, "God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, that everyone who has faith in Him may not die but have eternal life."

    Good News Bible a.k.a. Today’s English Version
    John 3:16, "For God loved the world so much, that he gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him, may not die but have eternal life."

    New Jerusalem Bible
    John 3:16, "Yes, God loved the world so much, that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him, may not die but have eternal life."

    Amplified Bible
    John 3:16, "For God so greatly loved (dearly prized) the world that He (even) gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."

    New American Bible
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life."

    New English Translation
    John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

    Literal Translation of the Bible
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
     
    #55 quantumfaith, Nov 21, 2011
  16. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Well, now we have a few translations for John 3:16...I'm not sure what the point is though...

    But since it's there, we can point out one miss-translation:

    -Any of the translations that say "God loved the word SO MUCH", or "this is how MUCH God loved the world" have added that part. That is not what the verse is saying. It is saying that this is HOW God loved the world, by sending his son.

    That's all.
     
    #56 12strings, Nov 21, 2011
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More falsehood

    According to Calvinism, Jesus did not die as a propitiation of the entire world, He died for the elect only. QED His death did not have infinite worth for the non-elect of the world, it had zero worth, hence Calvinism's limited atonement.

    Folks, they can run but they cannot hide. They post falsehood after falsehood to hide their false doctrines. Note the effort to shift discuss from their false doctrines and toward a discussion of whether someone was quoted correctly. Go figure.
     
    #57 Van, Nov 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2011
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi 12 Strings, I like the HCSB too.
     
    #58 Van, Nov 21, 2011
  19. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Van, you have shifted the discussion by accusing someone of posting falsehood without showing what the falsehood actually was.

    Does it not cross you mind, Van, that there might be Calvinists who are not intentional deceivers, but simply disagree with you?

    Why must you always accuse those who disagree with you of being deceptive, or of not dealing with arguments. It is both sides that resort to these tactics, not just Calvinists.

    Is it not possible in your mind that there might be some Calvinists on this board who are not trying to deceive people into accepting Calvinism, but actually believe that it is what the bible teaches?
     
    #59 12strings, Nov 21, 2011
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Joh Marc, pay no attention to post #52. He simply presents Calvinism as if it could be found in the Bible, which it cannot. You have denied nothing taught in the Bible, but he does in verse after verse after verse. Calvinists loves to charge others with their behavior.

    John 3:16 means what it says, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. It does not say whoever God allows to believe in Him shall not perish, the Calvinist rewrite.

    The Bible does not say no one seeks God at any time, the Calvinist rewrite, it says no one seeks God and leaves the scope, at all times or some of the time, i.e. when sinning, up to discernment using other verses. Jesus taught in Matthew 13 that three of the four soils sought after God. Therefore Romans 3:11 means no one seeks God when they are sinning rather than at any time, which is the Calvinist misinterpretation.
     
    #60 Van, Nov 21, 2011
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