Typical Roman Catholic

[Nimrod]

This weekend I was able to spend time with my family. Both of my parents are Roman Catholics, but they either ignore my questions about their Church or they refuse to answer them. Next week I'll give it another try.

One of my brothers, Rich, is a Roman Catholic and I was able to question him about his Church. First I gave him a flow-chart of the Roman Catholic way to heaven. If any of you seen it you know it looks like. A maze. Any how, as Rich was looking at it, he said "Oh that is wrong". I asked him "what is wrong?". His reply "Purgatory". I then informed him that for a Roman Catholic you must believe in purgatory and indulgences, you can't just pick and choose what to believe in and what not to believe in.

But he told me I was wrong, and that if his local church didn't teach it then you did not have to believe in it. He also tried to pull the "The Vatican II changed that" routine on me. We all know the Vatican II didn't change anything found in the Council of Trent. In fact they affirmed it. While we were in this argument, my mother who is a devout Roman Catholic was listening could of answered this argument, but didn't. She choose to ignore and leave the room. How sad!

Well I hope and pray that my brother and parents look into the Roman Catholic system and see how it goes against God and His Word, and that they will someday be saved.

 

[Nimrod]

One more thing. I asked Rich "how to you get to heaven". And what was his reply, "Be a good person as much as you can".

Now that is a typical Roman Catholic.
They don't know the Word,
they don't know what their own church teaches.
they believe in works to get to heaven

 

[phatmass]

It's offensive that you title this thread "a typical Roman Catholic".

I have Baptist friends, who go to a Baptist church, but have never read the Bible. Would it be fair to call them a "Typical Baptist"?

I would never do that. First of all, it's mean. Secondly, I know that there are people in every denomination that do not put God first in their lives, and could care less about learning about their faith.

If you tell me every Baptist knows everything about being a Baptist, I'd call you a liar. You started this thread unfairly--but I'm willing to end it on a fair note.

How about approaching me with the same information you approached your brother with? Let's see what happens.

God bless.

 

[phatmass]

Originally posted by Nimrod:
they believe in works to get to heaven

You just showed your ignorance regarding Catholic doctrine. Please, don't take that as being rude--you're just simply misinformed regarding Catholic theology.

Can you show me where Catholic teaching says this? I'll give you $100 gift certificate to Amazon.com if you can. Consider it a challenge.

God bless.

 

[Nimrod]

I said a typical Roman Catholic believes in works to get to heaven. I don't, the Holy Scriptures doesn't say that either.

I also understand most Roman Catholics on this board are not "typical".

 

[Nimrod]

I know the Roman Catholic way to salvation is work Plus faith. But typical Catholics don't know what their Church teaches! Why? Because the local church don't teach this at the Mass. I know this because I attended Mass for close to 25 years.

 

[phatmass]

Thank you for clarifying. Can you do me a favor? In the future when you refer to Catholics "believing in works to get to Heaven", can you just say "believing in faith and works through the grace of God to get to Heaven"? It's only fair, and might go a long way in making you seem more valid by stating the true teaching of the Church.

God bless.

 

[Nimrod]

It would be fair to quote what they say. IT would be unfair to quote what they should have said. Typical Catholic don't know the Roman Catholic way to salvation.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Indeed. Your parents and brother are indeed typical Roman Catholics.

Scott Hahn said, on one of his tapes, that the Roman Church seemed to have been engaged in an ignoble experiment to see just how many dumb and uncatechized laity they could turn out.

Your parents and brother probably never had a life changing experience with the Lord either. Perhaps they were very good people all their lives and never plumbed sin as you and I. People who have been notorious sinners and who are brought to repentance by God's grace have a strong tendency to respond with a love and excitement that pushes them to study, learn, and attempt to experience as much of the Lord as they can.

As for your last statement, you are the one who is screwed up, my man. Your parents are saved. Their baptism took care of that when it put them into Christ (Rom 6:3 and Gal. 3:27). They do not need to be able to do a doctorate level dissertation about it to be able to receive its benefits. That is called GRACE. Remember GRACE? Unmerited favor?

And your brother is correct, although his exegetical abilities are quite lacking. Romans 2: 5 - 10 and John 5: 28 - 29 state quite clearly that those who have "done good" shall INHERIT eternal life. What he needs to learn is how to show you from the standpoint of the covenant of God with man how God's salvation program works.

And believe me, it DOES not work like your interpretation of it claims.

Brother Ed

[ December 27, 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[DojoGrant]

Originally posted by Nimrod:
I know the Roman Catholic way to salvation is work Plus faith. But typical Catholics don't know what their Church teaches! Why? Because the local church don't teach this at the Mass. I know this because I attended Mass for close to 25 years.

The Mass isn't Sunday School, nor a Catechism class. It's the time to hear God's Word and what God's Word is saying in those readings, and to receive the Eucharist.

God bless,

Grant

 

[DojoGrant]

Originally posted by Nimrod:
It would be fair to quote what they say. IT would be unfair to quote what they should have said. Typical Catholic don't know the Roman Catholic way to salvation.

Let's get this straight...you know the majority of the billion Catholics in the world? I'm impressed!

American Catholics are generally lazy...I'll give you this. Why? Because America is in general lazy. Few parents do a good job of bringing their kids up in the faith these days, and that carries over throughout subsequent generations. This is a problem for ALL Christians.

I've heard statistics from a priest who is working on solving this problem (has some great tapes out) that 60% of American Catholics don't believe in the Real Presense of Jesus (not out of rejection...just ignorance).

However, people are ignorant because they want to be. Why? Because they're lazy. Lazy people don't turn to Christ. Lazy people don't care to study their faith. Lazy people need a bucket of cold water on their face.

It's a problem. You seem to love it that Catholics have this problem. Shame on you. I, on the other, know there is a problem, and I'd rather do something about it (which I try, more and more each day, by catechizing everyone I meet).

Now, which one do you think has God's blessing? Your condemnation and finger-pointing, or my condemnation and working to correct the problem?

Take your pick.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by DojoGrant:

I've heard statistics from a priest who is working on solving this problem (has some great tapes out) that 60% of American Catholics don't believe in the Real Presense of Jesus (not out of rejection...just ignorance).
Grant

Yes I was one of them, attending MASS for 25 years and I never knew they taught that you can worship the piece of bread.

Originally posted by DojoGrant:
However, people are ignorant because they want to be. Why? Because they're lazy. Lazy people don't turn to Christ. Lazy people don't care to study their faith. Lazy people need a bucket of cold water on their face.
Grant

I got smart and started to attend a Holy Scripture believing and teaching Church.

Originally posted by DojoGrant:
It's a problem. You seem to love it that Catholics have this problem. Shame on you. I, on the other, know there is a problem, and I'd rather do something about it (which I try, more and more each day, by catechizing everyone I meet).
Grant

Grant that is just what I did. I was trying to show my brother what the RCC teaches. Because I know that once he found out he would leave.

Originally posted by DojoGrant:
Now, which one do you think has God's blessing? Your condemnation and finger-pointing, or my condemnation and working to correct the problem?
Grant

Jude 3 "That you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints"

Yes, defending God's Word, would seem as condemation to others.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Nimrod,

Yes I was one of them, attending MASS for 25 years and I never knew they taught that you can worship the piece of bread.

The Catholic Church has never taught that you can worship a piece of bread, so it is a good thing that the Church never taught you this.

I got smart and started to attend a Holy Scripture believing and teaching Church.

I got smart and started learning my faith and what the Bible says; now, I'm a Bible Christian, that is, a full-fledged believing and practicing Catholic.

Because I know that once he found out he would leave.

Why would you be so sure of that? When I found out, I fell deeper in love with Jesus and his Bride.

Jude 3 "That you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints"

Yes, delivered to "the saints". And who were they? The Church. Nowhere does the Bible say that revelation was completely delivered in a nicely packaged book called "The Bible". The Bible, brother, is a product of the living, breathing Body of Christ.

And why do you insist on saying that "the Roman Catholic way to salvation is work Plus faith."

The Church has always taught, faithful to Saint Paul, that faith "works". Paul says that in Christ Jesus, what counts is only faith working through love. That's what Paul says. That's what your Bible teaches. Turn to Galatians 5:6 and read it for yourself and believe it.

God bless you,

Carson

 

[CatholicConvert]

I got smart and started to attend a Holy Scripture believing and teaching Church.

I am of another opinion entirely. So you believe the Bible, do you? Why don't you check out the destiny St. Paul gives for those who APOSTACIZE from the Church our Lord founded here on earth?

As for your bogus claim that you are trying to teach your brother what the Church teaches, since you yourself, from the clear evidence of your post and the fact that you left the Church, do not know what the Church teaches, how can you teach your brother. What you should have said, just to be honest, is that you were teaching him your own personal understandings of Church doctrine.

Brother Ed

[ December 27, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Daveth]

Hello Nimrod,

Remember what the Anabaptist saw just before gave their lives.

"They were argued with, with great cunning and cleverness, with many sweet and smooth words, with much false testimony, with threats and scolding and mockery, yea, with lies and grievous slander against the brotherhood, but none of these things moved them or made them falter.

"No human being was able to take away out of their hearts what they had experienced, such zealous lovers of God were they. The fire of God burned within them."

Love

David

[ December 26, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Daveth ]

 

[Acts 1:8]

Nimrod,

Where might I find a copy of this flowchart of yours?

thanks,
Chris

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Nimrod,

You wrote, "I was trying to show my brother what the RCC teaches. Because I know that once he found out he would leave."

In the Sixth Session on Justification the Council of Trent said, "But though He died for all [2 Cor 5:15], yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, it they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so if they were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just ... in whom we have redemption and remission of sins."

It is not the law that saves us, but faith in Christ. This is Catholic doctrine.

The Law is not the means of earning favor with God apart from Christ. But does this mean the Law is nothing, that the moral nature of God, as revealed through the words of God in the Old Testament and the Law, is no longer the moral nature of God? That we can live free of the moral restraints that the Lord reveals in His Law? By no means. Can we live in obedience to Christ and His Law without the work of the Holy Spirit? Never! Are the "good works" from ourselves? Never! Any good works we may accomplish, are accomplished only by the Grace of God, through His Spirit. So do we get the credit for our good works? It is God who gets the glory for they are His work of grace operating in us.

So why do anti-Catholics say we try to earn our salvation by our own good works? "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, so says Paul.

your brother in Christ, I am,

Carson

[ December 26, 2002, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Daveth:
Hello Nimrod,

Remember what the Anabaptist saw just before gave their lives.

"They were argued with, with great cunning and cleverness, with many sweet and smooth words, with much false testimony, with threats and scolding and mockery, yea, with lies and grievous slander against the brotherhood, but none of these things moved them or made them falter.

"No human being was able to take away out of their hearts what they had experienced, such zealous lovers of God were they. The fire of God burned within them."

Love

David

Reading an excellent book by a Lutheran right now: "Eucharist and Church Fellowship in the First Four Centuries." Since Lutherans adher to Sola Scriptura, the author appeals to Scripture alone to back up his claims. He then uses Early Church Fathers to show beliefs held in the first four centuries, especially regarding the Lord's Supper.

Your poor Anabaptist friends would have probably felt very left out, considering no church back then believed what he did...because he was outside of the church.

Oh wait...when did Anabaptists come into play again?

Come on...you're threats about some sort of modern crusade are hollow...I can hear my echo!

God bless your eyes...they need opened a little.

Grant

 

[Daveth]

"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; Acts (9:4-5)

Same Yesterday and today and tomorrow

Anabaptist Henry Sutphen, an eloquent and pious preacher, was taken out of his bed in the middle of the night, When he arrived at the place of his destination, he was condemned to be burnt; but, during the execution, many indignities were offered him, as those who attended not content with what he suffered in the flames, cut and slashed him in a most terrible manner.

Love
David

[ December 29, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Daveth ]

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by AdoptedByGod:
Nimrod,

Where might I find a copy of this flowchart of yours?

thanks,
Chris

I have to get back to you on this. It was a small pamplet for about $2. But I forgot the name of the authors.