U.S. Nears 1,000th Execution Since 1977

[bb_baptist]

After a 10-year moratorium, convicted killer Gary Gilmore in 1977 became the first person to be executed following a 1976 U.S. Supreme Court decision that validated state laws to reform the capital punishment system. Since then, 997 prisoners have been executed, and next week, the 998th, 999th and 1,000th are scheduled to die.

Source

 

[canadyjd]

 

[billwald]

Freedom is dangerous.

 

[KenH]

Unfortunately, we should have passed the 1000 mark many years ago.

Genesis 9:5-6 (ESV)
And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

[6] "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

 

[hillclimber]

Amen Ken.

 

[billwald]

Both of you willing to do the killing?

 

[hillclimber]

Not me, but I'm not a warrior. I fully support our troops in killing as many terrorists as is possible, so as to minimize their damage here on planet earth. Many of my friends and some of my children are warriors and will do anything necessary, to preserve ones right to be wrong.

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
I fully support our troops in killing as many terrorists as is possible, so as to minimize their damage here on planet earth.

AS if God needs any help dealing with "terrorists" and keeping us Christians safe.


Jamie
Shaking my head in disbeilf in some statements on this a Christian forum.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes, it is amazing that people don't accept the Bible's truth that capital punishment is to be carried out by the state.

Asking someone if they are personally willing to do the killing is missing the point. Capital punishment isn't an individual doing teh killing. It is the state honoring life by taking the life of murderers.

I too shake my head at people who just don't get it.

You say "As if God needs any help ..." No, God doesn't "need" help, but he has ordained this earth to run in a certain way, and has appointed goverment as his ministers to bear the sword. Do you not believe God?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

So when Saddam Hussein carried out executions, he was ordained of God to "bear the sword"?

 

[canadyjd]

Pastor Larry

No where in scripture does it say that Christians should seek or support the death of anyone. It is unChristlike to do so.

The “sword” in Romans 13 is a symbol of authority, not execution. Execution for rebellion was by crucifixion. In context, the passage is a warning to Christians not to rebel against the government, probably because of high taxes or taxes that were going to support pagan temples.

We are to live in subjection to the government, but that doesn’t mean we have to support laws that are contrary to the teaching of Christ. We ought to obey God, rather than man.

I Tim. 1:16: “Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.”

Here we have a very clear statement of scripture concerning what our attitudes should be toward the most violent among us. Paul was a murderer and a violent aggressor, the "foremost" sinner. He persecuted Christians to the death.

Yet Christ demonstrated perfect patience toward him, at least partially so that future Christians would have an example to follow. Our attitudes should be the same as Christ, one of perfect patience. Seeking or supporting the death of someone is the opposite of perfect patience. What should we do then?

To read on in I Tim. (2:1+) “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties, prayers, petitions, thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men…(v.3) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Peace to you

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by billwald:
Both of you willing to do the killing?

No, but I help make the ammo our troops use. Is that killing? Yes, maybe indirectly.

Did Israel ever fight its enemies? Did God ever sanction these fights?

All I can say is support our warfighter.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Yes, it is amazing that people don't accept the Bible's truth that capital punishment is to be carried out by the state.

Asking someone if they are personally willing to do the killing is missing the point. Capital punishment isn't an individual doing teh killing. It is the state honoring life by taking the life of murderers.

I too shake my head at people who just don't get it.

You say "As if God needs any help ..." No, God doesn't "need" help, but he has ordained this earth to run in a certain way, and has appointed goverment as his ministers to bear the sword. Do you not believe God?

Absolutely. Even those of you who are against capital punishment, in our form of government we are ALL pushing the plunger on the ole' toxic syringe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So when Saddam Hussein carried out executions, he was ordained of God to "bear the sword"?

Yes. Rom 13 makes no distinction between good rulers and bad.

Hussein will answer to God for his unjustness, and the world community can certainly take steps to addresss unjust executions. that is not what we are talking about.

Again, this is simply about whether or not we believe what the Bible teaches.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
No where in scripture does it say that Christians should seek or support the death of anyone. It is unChristlike to do so.

Christ didn't think so. In Gen 9:6 he clearly commnanded it, and then reiterated it in Rom 13. It is hard for me to argue with Scriptures, but if you think differenlty that is up to you.

The “sword” in Romans 13 is a symbol of authority, not execution.

It is both, authority up to and including execution.

In context, the passage is a warning to Christians not to rebel against the government,

Yes indeed, and that warning is based on teh underlying premise that God established all governments and we are to submit to them.

We are to live in subjection to the government, but that doesn’t mean we have to support laws that are contrary to the teaching of Christ. We ought to obey God, rather than man.

This is true, but irrelevant since capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of Christ.

I Tim. 1:16: “Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.”

Here we have a very clear statement of scripture concerning what our attitudes should be toward the most violent among us. Paul was a murderer and a violent aggressor, the "foremost" sinner. He persecuted Christians to the death.

Yet Christ demonstrated perfect patience toward him, at least partially so that future Christians would have an example to follow. Our attitudes should be the same as Christ, one of perfect patience. Seeking or supporting the death of someone is the opposite of perfect patience. What should we do then?

Well, bad exegesis and then bad application. The fact that Christ had mercy on Paul sin against him has no bearing on how the government treats others. And seeking the death penalty is not the opposite of perfect patience. Vigilantism is hte opposite of patience. The death penalty comes after trial and the due process.

Remember, this is not about how individuals treat another, but how the government does.

To read on in I Tim. (2:1+) “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties, prayers, petitions, thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men…(v.3) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Excellent ... We should certainly pray for our leaders and magistrates, and juries, who are charged with this awesome responsibility. It is a fearsome thing thta needs to be handled with great seriousness. But we dare not disobey God to salve the modern mindset. Since God said it, we should obey it.

 

[canadyjd]

Pastor Larry

Gen. 9 does not establish the death penalty. In context, the passage is talking about the difference between animals and men. Animals were given for food after the flood. Human beings are not to be killed because we are made in the image of God. The passage uses strong language to make the point.

There is no mention of governments or trials or due process or witnesses. The kind of things which you find in the Old Testament law when the death penalty is established. At best, it is a reference to the Near Eastern custom of the blood avenger.

We know, therefore, it didn't establish a "law". We also know that Gen. 9 is not an absolute statement. If it were an absolute statement, then every person who ever killed another would have been put to death in return. That did not happen to Cain before the flood, or Moses after the flood, or David after the Law, or Paul after Christ came. All were murderers.

You said,

"Bad exegesis and then bad application. The fact that Christ had mercy on Paul sin against him has no bearing on how the government treats others."

I am not talking about how the government treats others. I am talking about the attitude that Christians should have toward the worst of sinners.

If I Tim. 1:16 and what follows in chapter 2 isn't talking about having a Christlike attitude of perfect patience toward the worst of sinners, please give your own exegesis of these passages.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to you

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Originally posted by billwald:
Both of you willing to do the killing?

I don't know about them, but I would certainly be willing if called upon.

It's a great responsibility to be entrusted with carrying out justice by our great state.

On behalf of my state or my country, I would willingly execute a deserved murderer.

I also agree with Ken. The death penalty has not been applied nearly enough, although my own state has applied more than the rest.

If that makes me "unChristlike" then I will answer for that to Him, and I am more than willing to do so.

God ordained the killing of every man, woman, and child of the Philistine people. I suppose that would also make God "unChristlike" in your estimation?

I would not hold my judgement up to the same as God's, killing an entire people because of where they lived, but I do believe we have abundant biblical evidence to prove that murderers can be executed legally and morally by a sovereign government. Every murderer receives justice before he is executed.

This is in no way any different from going to war to defend our country and taking the life of another in the process.

It's no different from killing Nazi's during WWII, or killing terrorists today.

The people, by way of the government, have decided that these people are enemies, and have demmed it necessary to kill in defense of our country.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
Pastor Larry

Gen. 9 does not establish the death penalty. In context, the passage is talking about the difference between animals and men. Animals were given for food after the flood. Human beings are not to be killed because we are made in the image of God. The passage uses strong language to make the point.

There is no mention of governments or trials or due process or witnesses. The kind of things which you find in the Old Testament law when the death penalty is established. At best, it is a reference to the Near Eastern custom of the blood avenger.

We know, therefore, it didn't establish a "law". We also know that Gen. 9 is not an absolute statement. If it were an absolute statement, then every person who ever killed another would have been put to death in return. That did not happen to Cain before the flood, or Moses after the flood, or David after the Law, or Paul after Christ came. All were murderers.

...............
It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to you

Actually, Moses might have been a murderer, but Paul was simply doing what the government sanctioned. It was perfectly legal to round up Christians and kill them. That makes it "murder" in God's eyes, but not in the governments, and the government is what Jesus refers to.

Moses did die because of his short-comings and disobediance to God. He was not allowed to see the Promised Land. This was a pretty big punishment for someone who did all that he did.

As referring to Eastern Blood for Blood, the reference in the New Testament is more towards Roman law and Roman rule. This is a very good case where the Christians of the time were told to respect their government, even though it sanctioned killing Christians.

Finally, I am not the moderator of this forum, or I would strike the remark about being unchristlike. I do not believe that you should judge people in this manner for disagreeing with you on a point that is contriversial such as this.

Shame on you.

 

[Phillip]

Good point Bro. Reed, tell us canadyjd, is it permissable to hunt down and kill terrorists who have declared war on the United States?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
Gen. 9 does not establish the death penalty.

Then it doesn't say anything at all.

In context, the passage is talking about the difference between animals and men. Animals were given for food after the flood. Human beings are not to be killed because we are made in the image of God. The passage uses strong language to make the point.[/qutoe]So strong, in fact, that only by denying hte meaning of hte words can you arrive at your conclusion. You are partially right. It is declaring a difference between man and animals. It is also saying that it is okay to kill animals, but not to kill men. Why? Because men are made in teh image of God. And that is so important that if one man sheds another man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed. Why? Because man is made in the image of God and must be protected.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is no mention of governments or trials or due process or witnesses.

"By man" establishes that, and the trials and due process are also well established in the OT and common grace.

[quote[pqb[We know, therefore, it didn't establish a "law". We also know that Gen. 9 is not an absolute statement. If it were an absolute statement, then every person who ever killed another would have been put to death in return. That did not happen to Cain before the flood, or Moses after the flood, or David after the Law, or Paul after Christ came. All were murderers.</font>[/QUOTE][/qb]It establishes a principle which God alone can abrogate. Unless God changes it, we are to abide by it.

I am not talking about how the government treats others.

But capital punishment is about that very thing. It is not about "the attitude that Christians should have toward the worst of sinners." That is where you are confusing the issue. Capital punishment is about the government, not individuals.

If I Tim. 1:16 and what follows in chapter 2 isn't talking about having a Christlike attitude of perfect patience toward the worst of sinners, please give your own exegesis of these passages.

I have done this other places. I don't have time to repeat it here, but the point is clear. Paul was forgiven because of Christ's patience, as are we. We as individuals should have patience and grace towards others. But we, as a state, should not disobey God because we are weak in our commitment to human life.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

Then Christ lied ... There is no other way around it.