U=Unconditional Election

Gospel of John:

1:11-13, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

3:27, "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

6:65, "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. FROM THAT TIME MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES WENT BACK, AND WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM."

15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,..."

17:6 "I have manifestd thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of thee : thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perditiion; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Gospel of John:

1:11-13, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

3:27, "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

6:65, "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. FROM THAT TIME MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES WENT BACK, AND WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM."

15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,..."

17:6 "I have manifestd thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of thee : thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy wo

 

Clarification:

What I mean by "I am glad God is not fair" is that in man's definition of fairness somehow God owes man something. God owes us nothing; He is sovereign and would be completely justified in leaving mankind separated in an everlasting lake of fire. He has chosen to save some(actually milllions, certainly more than in The Flood) via His divine will--it is His creation--He can do as He wishes.

"Thank-you, Lord for saving my soul,
Thank-you, Lord for making me whole,
Thank-you, Lord for giving to me--
Thy great salvation, so rich and free".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

True, but HE demands that man contribute to his own salvation. "For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and notofyourselves, it, Salvation, it a Gift of God that cannot be earned through human effort." Yet, when we continue into chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, we read in all of the letters to the churches, "those who prove victorious". Now to me that implies human effort in perseverance. Those who don't prove victorious are blotted from the book of life. God saves only those with FAITH in Him, and those who are doing HIS work, and who are Keeping their white robes spotless, etc. So in spite of your protestations to the contrary, one can lose salvation by losing faith, one can lose salvation by not doing God's work, one can lose salvation by not remaining pure,...all requiring human effort!

Unconditional election is of value only when we humans DUR PART!

 

Wes quoted:The basic point here is that man, is his totally depraved condition is not capable of making the right choice. He can only choose the bad.

Then Wes Said: What a totally false doctrine! Your God obviously makes junk! Not my God!
-------------------------------------------------
Wes,

Could you please exegete Romans 3:10-18, where Paul quotes the OT saying things like "There is none righteous, not even one." "There is none who does good." "There is none who understands." "There is none who seeks after God."? All are under sin in their natural stand, and will never seek God apart from been born of the Spirit, something that happens by and from God based on nothing within me (unconditional election).

 

The Romans I have questions about are the Roman centurions.

First, there was the one whose servant Christ healed. "I have not found such great faith in all Israel." So was this man regenrate? How else could he have faith?

Second, there is Cornelius. He prayed and had faith which God responded to. And the angel told him how he would hear the gospel by which he would be saved (future tense.) So he was not regenerate when he had his faith.

 

The Book of Life:

Was written with the Blood of Jesus before the foundation of the world.(Jesus, the Lamb, slain from before the foundation...")

"Our part" had absolutely nothing to do with the writing therewith nor the indelibility thereof.

Jesus found all the lost sheep--no one can pluck them from Him--they are kept by the Father.

If one thinks one can be lost after being found, one understands not how one is found to begin with. If one is "born from above", one cannot be "unborn" from beneath. One can certainly lose rewards--see ICor. Ch. 3:10-15. "...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED: yet so as by fire."(not purgatory)

"Faith in one's faith" by virtue of one's free will is a work which has no merit. Using the faith that God gives saves one from the pit that burns forever--it is an everlasting salvation.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Jesus died for the sins of the world; He has forgotten no one. [John 1:29] World does not mean planet. The lost will be without excuse on judgment day because within His
Divine love and justice there is not one scintilla of favoritism or injustice. The Spirit aids and woos the lost to Christ and bends the will in the direction of submission to Christ. God, however, will not force conscripts into the army of the Lord.

Reverend Finney had it right when he said, 'God foreknows human contingencies without determining them. Brilliant!

What he meant is that God knows the exact number of the elect, but makes sinners responsible to either believe or reject His plan. This plan has safe-guarded His absolute fairness/justice while making the lost accountable to His severity.

 

Conscripts:

The man named Saul, in Satan's Army at the time, was rather forcefully convinced to change loyalty on the road to Damascus. See the testimony of the Paul--the Apostle. He had a zeal for God--so he thought--yet not according to knowledge. He was sincerely wrong.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Yes, but first let me set the stage.
Roman's 1:The theme stated: "SALVATION is by FAITH"

Then Paul begins to explain God's retribution against the gentiles 18 thru 32

Romans 2 Paul continues with his explaination of God's retribution against jew and gentile alike!
The Jews are not exempt from the retribution of God, 2:1-11.
The Law will not save them, 2:12-24.
Circumcision will not save them 2:25-29

Romans 3 Paul continues with retribution.
God's promises will not save them, 3:1-8
All are guilty, 3:9-20

But that is where Paul's explanation to the Romans of God's retribution ends, and Paul begins to explain FAITH and the JUDGMENT of GOD

Specifically Romans 3:10-18
Romans 3:9-20

This is the end of Paul's Preamble to his explanation of SALVATION THROUGH FAITH! It is not supportive at all of a doctrine of Total Depravity. It simply says that under the law, not one human measured up to God's standard. But then One could point to Abraham, Noah, etc. and say, "but what about them"? and that is a fair question until one reads Hebrews 11 and discovers it was not Noah's or Abraham's obedience of the LAW, that caused God to look on them favorably. It was their FAITH in God, and that is the theme that Paul embarks on beginning in Romans 3:21, having set the stage in Romans 1,2,and 3.

NO, Paul is not declaring that in the New Covenant of FAITH it is the same as under the Old Covenant of Law. He is declaring a "WAS" condition before beginning the "IS" condition. He wants his readers to understand the difference. Yes, the OLD TESTAMENT does contain the words that Paul quotes here, BUT! the OLD TESTAMENT deals with the LAW, pointing out and lifting up those who were bulwarks of FAITH in the arena of LAW before he begins to explain what Faith IS and DOES.

I hope this satisfies your inquiry, but if not please ask for more.

 

John 6:44...total inability to do anything good toward salvation.

John 8:43...with regard to hearing, no ability.

Now, how can it be that man has the ability to will something toward his own salvation and John 6:44 still be true?

Wes, you are are forgetting that Calvinists believe regeneration precedes faith.

Calvinists will agree with you, that nobody, not even the elect has the ability to believe in Christ. Arminians also agree that man lacks moral ability. Funny, Arminians also accept total depravity according to the Remonstrance.

Both believe grace is necessary. On this they agree. Both also agree that man has a natural ability to have faith. However, one side believes that man does not have the moral ability to exercise faith in Christ.

One says that natural ability assumes moral ability, and that prevenient grace stimulates his moral ability, heretofore apart from hearing the gospel is lacking. However, the ultimate deciding factor is man's natural ability.

The other says that man has the natural ability but no moral ability whatsoever with regard to saving faith, but that regeneration precedes faith and that, regenerated man believes, eg. exercises saving faith and is justified.

I surmise you believe that God choses us based on His knowledge of which of us will believe or not believe. How is this any less a fixed event in space and time than the Calvinist position?

Foreknow in Rom. 8:29 does not mean to know the future. It means TO KNOW IN A SALVIVIC WAY, e.g. "intimately know," (see John 10:28; Matt. 7:21-23; Gal. 4:8-9 for proof that God only "knows" believers, not unbelievers.) God says he ALSO predestines THE ONES who are foreknown (Rom. 8:29). They are the same group. The foreknown ARE ALSO the predestined.


Scripture teaches that we are predestined from before the foundation of the world according to the good pleasure of His will. It does not say we are elected on the basis of our faith. If it does, then you move election and thus salvation from the category of mercy to the category of justice. You are also saying that God is acting with contingency in Him. Now, either that is the God of Open Theism, or you are being inconsistent with the theology of God having no contingency in Him whatsoever.

You also have to answer the question of why some believe and others do not? Is it something of the body? No, can't be. Is it their mind, their level of understanding? Their fear of hell or respect for God? No, Scripture says none of us respect God and if its fear of punishment, that makes fear a good thing of merit. Is it because some are more spiritual than others? No, can't be Scripture says otherwise.

What is it about Abraham that caused God to elect him? He was a pig eating pagan.

What about Jacob? Scripture says God chose him before He was born, which takes out the entire idea of our faith or obedience out of the picture, since election is something that happens in the mind of God. Calling is where that election moves over into our own experience, and it rests on foreknowledge and predestination not on us.

You have God grounding His acts in man, acting contingently, contrary to orthodox theology of God.

God's sovereign predestination was not based upon God looking into the future to see who would pick Him (this would mean that God learned) for no one would pick Him because they are slaves to their sinful natures (Rom. 3:10-12; 6:14-20), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), enemies of God (Rom. 5:10), with nothing good dwelling in them (Rom. 7:18), hateful, disobedient, and enslaved to their lusts (Titus 3:3). If God elected based upon the foreseen goodness or choice of someone, then God would be a respecter of persons since He would be showing favoritism based on something in the sinner. God's decisions are according to His own will, according to His own purpose (Eph. 1:5), because God is not a respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11).

 

"Tiptoeing" through TULIP:

"God created all the flowers too." anon.(For His good pleasure)

We seem to have re-run the "obstacle course" of the 5-points of Grace--whew--there seem to be more "itching ears" this time.

Let us wash out our ears and go back to: "T" which stands for the Total Depravity of Adam's race including Adam. The U-L-I-P do not make sense without a proper grounding in "T".

Unless we can decide about "TOTAL", we have no futher room for discussion. If depravity is not total, the acroynm changes to:
P= Partially depraved
C= Conditional election
U= Unlimited atonement
R= Resistable Grace
P= Perserverance of the saints--maybe

The above scenario gives man a chance to pull himself up "by his own bootstraps" IF he can just find that "spark of faith" which everyone has been given. Are we sure?

Read the Book of Romans, Ch. 1-5. Do we find any men with a little bit of "good" i.e.,the ability to choose Jesus?

Selah,

One point on "U": Eph. 1:4-5, without interpretation: "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unt

[ November 21, 2004, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

Edited:

The ending of the last post got edited wrong.

See Eph. 1:4-5, looking for words like: "predestinated" and "will".

The word: predestinated deserves at least an hour of "word study."

Selah,

Bro. James

 

GeneMBridge said,

Because when you take verse 44 out of its context to prove your point, you distort the truth! Here is John 6:44 in its Context, Jesus having a conversation with JEWS at the synagog in Capernaum!

Gene, in context, verse 44 just don't mean what you want it to mean! It is not a declaration that man is not able... But rather that those who have not believed what the Father has taught them, will not believe the SON. Conversely, those who do believe what the Father has taught them, do believe the Son and receive life. It is important that you include verses 43 through 51 to get the true meaning of verse 44. I removed the verse numbers out of Jesus' statement so that the text would flow 'conversationally'. Yes, the emphasis is mine, but for clarity only.

 

GeneMBridges also said,

Once again, In context John 8:43 does not say what you want it to say. But rather that because of their preconditioning, the Jews could not bear to hear Jesus' words. They were "preconditioned" by the Torah and remain so 'til today. Now there is nothing wrong with the Torah, every one of our bibles contains the Torah. If you were to pick up a bible for the first time, and begin with Genesis, believing and putting into practice all that you get out of the books of the Torah. Never having seen or touched the New Testament. YOU too would not be receptive to the teachings of the New Testament. That is the condition of the Jews with whom Jesus is conversing. He is telling them that they, under their preconditioning, cannot tolerate hearing the words of Jesus. Most gentiles are not so preconditioned, and scriptures say that we do listen and believe.

I plead with you to forget the concept of "total depravity", it is a myth! It is not true! Likewise for "unconditional election"!

 

Then you surmise wrongly. I have no such belief!

I believe that ALL of the work of man's redemption has been completed, that God has nothing left for our salvation except Judgment! Jesus, in John 3:18, tells us that those who believe in the Son of God do not face judgment but pass from death into eternal life, but those who believe not, are judged already by their unbelief, and their fate is being cast into the lake of fire.

You see Gene, it is a finished work. It is like Going to Yosemite Park to view the beauty. You cannot come out of the park without the knowledge that you have been changed by being there. True, you can reject thinking you have been changed, but the reality is you "know the truth of the Park" and it is a part of you henceforth, you can reject the change that has taken place, but you do so to your own detriment. The Park is "finished", but you are not, you are still receptive to change.

God's redemption of man IS finished like the park, but man is not. Each generation of man remains unfinished! And must, through "hearing the word of God" (a finished work) be changed, or reject being changed.

Before Jesus there was a barrier to man having everlasting life. That barrier is the penalty for sin which was death. Jesus came and through self sacrifice, removed that penalty from man...ALL mankind, so that man by believing in Jesus (who is God) can have eternal life, the way that God created man in the beginning. Now, since Jesus, Sin is not a factor in man's salvation, we no longer die for sin. But that does not bring us Salvation, there is only one factor that brings us salvation and that is believing God's word, and having FAITH in His only Begotten Son, who is God. That is like a visit to Yosemite Park and leaving "renewed" by having been there.

One more thought; One may visit, then leave the park unchanged, and later come to realize the truth experienced and be changed by it at a later time. That happens to many. They don't accept the truth on first exposure to it, only to submit to it later. My own father was one of these who eventually was confronted by the truth that he had experienced along the way. I rejoice in knowing that he accepted Jesus late in his life and is now with Jesus, his savior.

 

Wes Outwest,

I think what you said about your father points to the importance of our witnessing about Christ's power and authority to save. Sometimes it takes time for the seed to bring forth a harvest, and sometimes the Devil takes the see of the Gospel away, so that that person does not invite Jesus into their life. [Matt. 13:4]

Thank God for those who sow the seed.