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Featured Unaffiliated independent Baptists

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I contend that every Baptist church is an independent Baptist church.
    In another thread (on post # 15) Rivaughn (post # 15) used the term of Unaffiliated independent Baptists

    I contend that 99% are not unaffiliated! Virtually every church affiliates with other churches of like faith and practice though at least semi-formal affiliation. In addition - must cooperate with mission boards to support missionaries.

    Some will say that groups such as the SBC, BMA, GARBC, ect, are not independent because they have denominal headquarters. Nothing can be further from the truth. - Now in one sense these groups are denominations because we are "a religious organization whose congregations whose are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices" However - those organizations do NOT control the affairs of the local church - such as Lutheran, Catholics, and Methodists- which often have much actual control over the individual church.

    Bottom line - Baptist churches are united in a Rope of Sand.

    Open for discussion
     
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    In Baptists in America, historian Bill Leonard addresses your definitional error :

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Le7LEWFTNGUC&pg=PA114
    In his encyclopedia, he defines as Independent Baptist those independent of the Conventions, including loosely associated groups such as Fundamental Baptist Fellowship, Baptist Bible Union, General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Southwide Baptist Fellowship, New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches, etc.:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=vnWE00YVeJQC&pg=PA387
     
    #2 Jerome, Feb 27, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Yeup, Rope of Sand is a good choice of words.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    In his 1970 Convention speech hyping the denomination's "great program", SBC President W.A Criswell warned of the danger that "we shall dissolve like a rope of sand" were Southern Baptist churches to flag in their devotion to cooperative missions:

    Baptist Press, June 1, 1970

    "Our world-wide mission program holds us together like cables of steel."
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, that was the one of the parting sentiments of onetime SBC Executive Committee Chairman Brooks Wester who stepped down in 1980 as the fundamentalist takeover ramped up:

    Baptist Press, June 12, 1980
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you, at least in theory every Baptist Church is independent and in practice almost all of them are. I say at least in theory because there are a few Baptists that practice some form of connectionalism that inserts a bit of limitation on local churches that most of us aren't used to -- for example, some Free Will Baptist associations have a standing presbytery that operates somewhat independently of the churches, such as in ordaining ministers.

    I used the term unaffiliated to refer to churches that have neither formal nor semi-formal affiliation. I have no idea of the numbers other than to suspect your 99% quite a bit too much. There are many Baptist churches that have no connection to any kind of association or fellowship, and do all their mission work through direct support -- either giving directly to the missionary or his sending church. Some of the "least independent" Baptist churches are the independent Baptists who are dominated by a dictatorial pastor. In those cases it is usually the pastor who is independent, rather than the churches.

    My question in the other thread was related to finding out what kind of independent Baptists the author of the OP was talking about. He obviously didn't mean all Baptists. There is a lot of fluidity of usage and meaning when one speaks of "independent Baptists". I can't speak for others, but the churches I have been in that participated in associations were independent, controlled their own affairs and did what they pleased whether or not it pleased the association.

    It can be hard to compare some of these associations and fellowship. For example, the BMAA (which Salty mentions above) is an association of churches. The BBFI and the SBF (unless they have changed recently) are not associations of churches, but fellowships of preachers. By this I don't mean one is more independent than the other -- but that they are structured in very different ways.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The FBFI is most definitely a fellowship of like-minded brethren and not an association of churches. Men like B. Myron Cedarholm, G. Archer Wenigar and Arno Q. Wenigar, Sr. took the lessons they learned from the conflicts in the Northern Baptist Convention and the Conservative Baptist Association.
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I do not use the term "fundamentalist TAKE-OVER (caps my emphasis)
    It was the "fundamentalist" reclaiming the Convention from the previous liberal take-over.
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Yes, FBFI originated as a sort of a caucus in the Northern Baptist Convention (the Fundamentalist Fellowship), then in the CBA when it went independent from the NBC in the 1940s. Members don't have to be preachers, do they?
     
  10. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Correct, they do not.
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    BBFI's Constitution and Bylaws make it clear it is intended to be a fellowship of pastors.
    This style of fellowship/governance may be more typical of the Southern fellowships than the Northern ones. Some of this may reflect the stamp of J. Frank Norris.
     
  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I think Leonard's distinction is good, and highlights something that we need to understand when discussing Baptists. We are sometimes speaking in terms of "independent" as a matter of polity -- each local Baptist church is independent and autonomous. And then there are times we discuss churches which name or describe themselves as "Big I" Independent. In our area BBFI churches have always been big on the "Independent" descriptor (and yet I have found many of their rules more restrictive and less attractive to my "independent" taste than the SBC). I started using "unaffiliated" to go further and describe churches that do not participate in any fellowships such as BBFI, WBF, SBF. I did this when doing some research on independent churches and needing a further question and identification -- since most all of these churches used the term "Independent" in much the same way.

    For understanding the varied Baptist landscape in the U.S., I highly recommend the books of Albert W. Wardin -- Baptist Atlas and The Twelve Baptist Tribes in the USA: a Historical & Statistical Analysis -- and for worldwide Baptists -- Baptists Around the World. Baptist Atlas is somewhat outdated, but the introductory material is very helpful in understanding how and why Baptists in the U.S. break down into the different sub-groups that they do.
     
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Pastors fellowship vs church fellowship - its all the same thing - Unless you want to call it a loophole!
     
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Not necessarily. In some cases they may come out much the same, but notice the BBFI bylaws. You can't be an officer or a representative unless you are a pastor. In the past (and probably still that way) a church could get a vote if the pastor could not attend or they did not have a pastor -- after going through a process to gain approval for the substitution through the executive powers that be.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This was happening in the GARBC - where many members of the Council of 18 were mission board/college Presidents. - and it was the Council of 18 which determined entries to be "Approved" by the GARBC. (Another words - they were approving themselves) A personal friend of mine, Dr. Brown requested an amendment be made that a salaried employee of the GARB itself or any approved agy should not be qualified to be a member of the Council of 18. However, his recommendation was turned down. The "compromise" was that the GARB would no longer approve any institution - since that decision should be made by the local church. Sure - is it reasonable for a church on the East Coast have the wherewith to check out a school or mission board on the West Cost?

    This and other reasons, Dr. Brown co-wrote: What happened to the GARBC at Niagara Falls
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yet I have right here on my desk an Official BBFI Church Directory. The heading is "BBFI Churches." :)
     
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    IIRC, the role of paid staff in the governance of the association was one of the reasons for the kerfluffle between the CBA and the then CBF (now FBFI).
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I have one as well, though not the most recent one (and I don't keep it on my desk :) ). BBFI churches in the church directory would be a list of churches that support the BBFI missions or schools, but "affiliation" is stated in the bylaws to be for pastors.
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I think the latest copies of the directory are called "BBFI Contact Directory." Somebody finally noticed the inconsistency. :)
     
  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    From the BBFI web page " The Baptist Bible Fellowship International is officially a fellowship of pastors, and by extension, a network of preachers, churches, missionaries, and educational institutions worldwide, affiliated for the purpose of church planting and sharing the truth of the Word of God." ( Bold - my emphasis)
    "Participation in the Baptist Bible Fellowship International is open to any Baptist pastor of a supporting Baptist church believing in and adhering to the Word of God, ...A supporting church is one that financially supports BBFI missions or colleges. "
     
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