Unbelief vs Belief ?

[DaveXR650]

The Arminian firefighter turns up and finds that none of the prisoners want to escape. They think it's great there and don't believe the building is really burning!

I thought more along the lines of the Provisionist version using the above cartoon. "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night"
"Thou provided a firetruck and thus the way, and left it to me to somehow get out!"

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I don't see this as showing any uncertainty by Spurgeon. He is using an illustration. If my memory serves, he likens the two lines to a railway track. The fact is that God's word teaches both the absolute sovereignty of God and man's responsibility (John 6:39-40; Matt. 11:25-30). That we may struggle to reconcile them with our own human reasoning should not surprise us (Isaiah 55:8-9; Romans 11:33-36) and it did not surprise Spurgeon or other Particular Baptists.
Spurgeon suffered in many ways, both physically and with depression. I have a book published by the Metropolitan Tabernacle called The Suffering Letters of C.H. Spurgeon. In those letters, he details his illnesses and how it is his firm grasp of theology, especially the sovereignty of God in all things that sustains him.

I appreciate your reply, but I think you are missing the point I was making. I am not denying that Spurgeon affirmed both divine sovereignty and human responsibility. I am saying that his metaphor of “two parallel lines that meet only in eternity” is itself an admission that his system, Calvinism, produces an imbalance, evident to himself as well, that he could not resolve on the level of doctrine.

You call it “just an illustration,” but illustrations are not neutral. They reveal how a man understands the thing he is illustrating. And Spurgeon’s illustration does not describe harmony; it describes irreconcilability, two lines that cannot be brought together “upon any human anvil.”

That is not how Scripture speaks.

Scripture never presents two contradictory doctrines that are reconciled at the Throne of God. It never speaks of two truths that only meet in eternity. It never describes the gospel as a set of parallel lines that defy doctrinal unity. That language comes from Spurgeon, not from the apostles.

You cite John 6 and Matthew 11. I agree with both passages wholeheartedly. But neither of them presents the gospel as a contradiction we must accept without understanding. They present one truth: God works upon the heart, and man genuinely responds. There is no “railway track” metaphor in the text, no parallel lines, no philosophical tension. That imagery arises only when a system demands it.

Spurgeon’s suffering, his depression, and his reliance on God’s sovereignty for comfort are not in dispute. I am not questioning his faith or his devotion. I am pointing out that his metaphor is a theological patch, an attempt to hold together two claims that his inherited system required but Scripture never describes.

If the Bible taught two lines that cannot meet until eternity, I would gladly affirm it. But it does not. That language exists only in Spurgeon’s writings, not in the Word of God, not in the early churches, and not in apostolic doctrine.

So my point remains: Spurgeon’s metaphor reveals a struggle within himself to reconcile Calvinism, not a struggle inside Scripture. Scripture never presents these doctrines as reconcilable, Calvinism does. And Spurgeon’s illustration shows how far even the Prince of Preachers was willing to reach to justify the unjustifiable tension his system created.

This is not a criticism of Spurgeon’s devotion or his suffering. It is simply an observation that the metaphor itself is a theological patch, a way of holding together two claims that Scripture never presents.

 

[Ben1445]

Have you ever heard or read somebody who believes the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism, as you call it) saying anything resembling, "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"? Can you quote anyone saying/writing such a thing? They are more likely to echo hymn words lke these:

Chosen not for good in me,
Waked from coming wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour’s side,
By the Spirit sanctified--
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
By my love, how much I owe.

Or these:

My God has chosen me,
Though one of nought,
To sit beside my King
In heaven's court.
Hear what my Lord has done,
O the love that made Him run
To meet His erring son!
This has God wrought.

3 Not for my righteousness,
For I have none,
But for His mercy's sake,
Jesus, God's Son,
Suffered on Calvary's tree -
Crucified with thieves was He -
Great was His grace to me,
His wayward one!

Please pardon us for our concern for others.

I was taught freely ye have received, freely give.

 

[Ben1445]

The Arminian firefighter turns up and finds that none of the prisoners want to escape. They think it's great there and don't believe the building is really burning!

This is reality, Arminian or not. It’s funny that you mention their own will, as if you think they have a choice.

They that are whole need not a physician.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t need Him. It means they don’t think they need Him so they don’t go to Him.

 

[Ben1445]

I thought more along the lines of the Provisionist version using the above cartoon. "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night"
"Thou provided a firetruck and thus the way, and left it to me to somehow get out!"

That doesn’t represent the provisionist position. The somehow has already been provided. The only thing left to do is yield. Yielding would mean not doing what you think is the best thing and following the instructions of the Saviour.

 

[Silverhair]

I didn't say anything about me being a Jew. I am English. And I keep telling you that you are wrong. Calvinists do not think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. If that were true, they would be boasting. Paul, in reminding Christians that they had been saved by God's grace, says:

(Eph 2:8-10 NKJV) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Since you referred to God picking out Israel and you think God picked you out I thought it was a reasonable question.

And I keep pointing out to you what calvinism teaches. Your the ones that claim you were chosen before creation, your the ones that say you have to be given faith after you are saved.

I quoted two of your main calvinists and you still say I have it wrong. Perhaps it is you that is just ignoring the realities of the philosophy that you follow.

David the boasting we see in calvinism is in the things they say and claim for themselves.

Why did you not answer the questions I asked you David?

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

Do you agree with these two calvinists or not.
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

The God given order is believe first then God saves, as we see clearly in the following verses.
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


By the way, the reason a person cannot boast is because they were saved by the grace of God once they have believed in His risen Son.

Which as I have shown you is the opposite of what calvinism teaches.

 

[Silverhair]

May I refer you to Bambi and the wise words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (c.f. Job 13:5).

Would you rather that I go along with the error of calvinism or point you to the truth of scripture?

I have shown many times that the basis of calvinism is pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine. You ignore the historical facts and cling to your man made philosophy. Why is that?

You know what they say. The truth will set you free.

I have offered you truth now all you have to do is accept it.

 

[David Lamb]

Please pardon us for our concern for others.

I was taught freely ye have received, freely give.

I was taught that, too, and I am sorry if you took anything I have written as suggesting that I have no concern for others, If, by careless wording, I gave you that impression, I humbly apologise.

 

[David Lamb]

Since you referred to God picking out Israel and you think God picked you out I thought it was a reasonable question.

And I keep pointing out to you what calvinism teaches. Your the ones that claim you were chosen before creation, your the ones that say you have to be given faith after you are saved.

I quoted two of your main calvinists and you still say I have it wrong. Perhaps it is you that is just ignoring the realities of the philosophy that you follow.

David the boasting we see in calvinism is in the things they say and claim for themselves.

Why did you not answer the questions I asked you David?

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

Do you agree with these two calvinists or not.
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

The God given order is believe first then God saves, as we see clearly in the following verses.
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


By the way, the reason a person cannot boast is because they were saved by the grace of God once they have believed in His risen Son.

Which as I have shown you is the opposite of what calvinism teaches.

To answer your questions that II somehow neglected to answer before (sorry about that): Yes I do believe that God chose whome He would save before Creation. Paul wrote:

(Eph 1:3-4 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Yes, I believe in what the acronym calls "Limited Atonement". Surely we all do, except for universalists, for we believe that it is those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who are saved (unless, of course, you say that Christ atoned for unsaved people too).

Yes, believe n unconditional election. How could anybody fulfil any conditions for election? It took place "before the foundation of the world."

Now for your point about regeneration/new birth coming before belief. As Paul say that unsaved sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, they need new life in order to have faith. However, that doesn't mean, nor do Calvinists believe, that a sinner can be granted newness of life, then weeks, months or years later, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is reality, Arminian or not. It’s funny that you mention their own will, as if you think they have a choice.

They that are whole need not a physician.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t need Him. It means they don’t think they need Him so they don’t go to Him.

I do think they have a choice. I have repeatedly said so, as have generations of Calvinists. It really would be helpful if you stopped reading caricatures of what Calvinists believe and listened to what they actually believe.
Imagine yourself walking through the woods and suddenly coming across a cage with a lining of befouled, rotting straw. The stench is horrible. In the cage is a man dressed in filthy moth-eaten rags.
You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

That is how it is for most unsaved people. When I was witnessing recently at a big acricultural show in my area, I would offer a New Testament to folk walking by. Many of them would just wave me away, saying, "No thanks, I'm fine!" I always want to run after them and shout at them: "You're not fine! You're dead in trespasses and sins, and you're on your way to hell!" But it needs the Lord to open their hearts to see their situation.

The good news is that we gave away about 750 N.T.s and dozens of tracts and other literature. May God open the eyes of those that took the literature to read it and find the Saviour

 

[Ben1445]

I do think they have a choice. I have repeatedly said so, as have generations of Calvinists. It really would be helpful if you stopped reading caricatures of what Calvinists believe and listened to what they actually believe.
Imagine yourself walking through the woods and suddenly coming across a cage with a lining of befouled, rotting straw. The stench is horrible. In the cage is a man dressed in filthy moth-eaten rags.
You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

That is how it is for most unsaved people. When I was witnessing recently at a big acricultural show in my area, I would offer a New Testament to folk walking by. Many of them would just wave me away, saying, "No thanks, I'm fine!" I always want to run after them and shout at them: "You're not fine! You're dead in trespasses and sins, and you're on your way to hell!" But it needs the Lord to open their hearts to see their situation.

The good news is that we gave away about 750 N.T.s and dozens of tracts and other literature. May God open the eyes of those that took the literature to read it and find the Saviour

but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord;

As I read what Paul said in 2 Cor. 4, it says that if we hide the gospel it is hidden to the lost. But by preaching it, they have the light of the gospel that shines brightly enough for any to see but that they have been blinded.
What Paul is saying is that preaching of the word of the gospel is what overcomes the blindness.

 

[DaveXR650]

That doesn’t represent the provisionist position. The somehow has already been provided. The only thing left to do is yield. Yielding would mean not doing what you think is the best thing and following the instructions of the Saviour.

Ben. I forgot to mention. In the glove compartment of the firetruck is a complete owner's manual.

You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

Seriously though, Martin's illustration is the best I have heard on what the true situation really is. And the cage isn't locked except by the man's own will which has him convinced he's doing fine. His wonderful free will is actually the problem. And in truth I don't go so far either as to say regeneration precedes faith, but I do say that there is a work of the Spirit, and enlightening or awakening, of just the "seeing" of your true situation, that is essential and prior to anything you do, if you are to get out of that cage.

In my poor attempt at humor I was quoting a line from Wesley's "And Can it Be" where he says "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound by sin and nature's night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed in light. My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed thee." Here you have a true non-Calvinist writing about a "quickening ray", which is actually probably more than enlightening. Quickening is usually related to life-giving, so maybe Wesley believed regeneration preceded faith after all, or at least nearly the same time.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben. I forgot to mention. In the glove compartment of the firetruck is a complete owner's manual.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
What better Owner’s manual than the Bible written by the Manufacturer and Owner and written to the steward?

 

[Ben1445]

…regeneration preceded faith after all, or at least nearly the same time.

It is not reasonable nor accurate to assume that they happen at different times.
If you are alive and regenerated, you cannot be unsaved and dead in sin.

 

[Silverhair]

To answer your questions that II somehow neglected to answer before (sorry about that): Yes I do believe that God chose whome He would save before Creation.

First, I want to thank you for answering the questions.

According to your view you must also agree that God condemned the vast majority of humanity before creation. But that view calls the justice and honesty of God into question. Are you saying God lied when He said He "desires all men to be saved" [1Ti 2:4]

Are you saying that the Jesus got it wrong when He said Joh 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” Or do you think "EVERYONE" really means some?

Jesus Christ is the "Elect one" [Isa_42:1] and we are only one of the elect when He is in us through faith [Col 1:27] in other words saved. Are you suggesting that you were saved prior to creation? That sounds a bit arrogant to me.

Yes, I believe in what the acronym calls "Limited Atonement".

The atonement that Christ Jesus provided is real and true for all people not just the calvinist few. Christ died for the world of sinners. The bible is quite clear on this, 1Jn_2:2 ...propitiation for the whole world, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all..., Rom 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly.

The atonement saved no one but it made salvation possible for everyone.

Jesus Christ was the "atoning sacrifice for our sins" 1Jn_2:2 and by that sacrifice "when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son" Rom_5:10. But the Atonement/Reconciliation saved no one. We have to trust in the risen Christ or we are still lost. "how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!" Rom_5:10

Yes, believe n unconditional election. How could anybody fulfil any conditions for election? It took place "before the foundation of the world."

So you think you were saved prior to creation. The bible disagrees with you, so you have to decide whether you will trust the word of God or the false teachings of man.

The bible points to the condition of salvation in a number of places.
Joh 3:16 "...that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe ... you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth...

Heb_11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Your errors just keep mounting up David.

Now for your point about regeneration/new birth coming before belief. As Paul say that unsaved sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, they need new life in order to have faith.

Being spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond to the drawing of God.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.”
How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh_5:24, NKJV, emphasis mine)
These are three present [simple statements of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time] active [the subject as the doer or performer of the action] verbals.
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. Faith in Jesus Christ clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration {being born again} is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.

Calvinism has a person saved prior to them ever trusting in Christ Jesus. In actual fact calvinism has rendered Christ unnecessary as the absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

 

[Silverhair]

It is not reasonable nor accurate to assume that they happen at different times.
If you are alive and regenerated, you cannot be unsaved and dead in sin.

The order is important, you believe and then you are regenerated/saved/born again.

Act 16:30 ... “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ...“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,...”

The calvinist have you saved before you believe.