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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by HopefulNChrist, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for response. I understand fully the meaning of the little "c" in catholic meaning universal. The problem came from the "filioque", the insertion of "from the son" like you said earlier by the Latin Church.

    The creed is for all Christians and no one professing Christ should have any problem with it. Either this one from the Latin Rite or the previous one that our Eastern Orthodox brothers profess.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I agree Adonia, there was a season of paranoia, mistrust and even murderous hysterics concerning heresy which overcame the church for several centuries which resulted in atrocities

    The history of the church is quite fleshy, God cannot be pleased by it.
    Still of a lesser degree existing to this day by the lesser "Grand Inquisitors".

    While sound doctrine is a must for true koinonia with those in agreement it is no excuse for murder, slander and false accusations of those in disagreement.

    1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    Again, healthy debate is good as long as our Triune God is glorified and the brethren are strengthened in the faith without insult or innuendo.

    Soon, I believe, He will return and rule over humanity "with a rod of iron".
     
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    I am sure He was quite disappointed at times. He expected that though, what with humans being involved.

    And what a day that will be. A "rod of iron" with true mercy to those worthy of it.
     
  4. HopefulNChrist

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    "In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. "

    Then how about how the Nicene creed testify on how we receive the remission of sins?

    It is by believing in Him is how we receive the remission of sins and thereby receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    The error in the Nicene creed may have misread Peter's words in Acts 2 by reading verse 38 out of context.

    When the Jews heard that they had crucified the One that they had not believed in, and asked Peter what they were to do, Peter said to repent, which in following Peter's witnessing and the people's inquiry in panic, is to believe in the One that had not believed in.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    So it is in rightly dividing the word of truth in Acts is how that the Nicene creed epically in error at for how we are to receive the remission of sins.

    And doesn't calling that one Church holy doesn't bother you yet when we are not prefect yet? I believe Jesus will accomplish this one day, but we can't claim to be holy now when that is our hope in Him..

    Ephesians 5:23That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    And it is a false witness to testify of our selves when we are testifying of the church we belong to as being holy.

    John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

    Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    So there are error in that line in the Nicene creed as well.

    "And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets."

    Jesus is the Giver of life ( John 6:33 ) and because some Bibles capitalize spirit in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6, is why that error exists in the Nicene creed, and so which scripture is correct? John 5:39-40 says scripture is to testify of the Son in coming to Him for life. Therefore discern that error.


    Then ponder the mystery why Pentecostals and Charismatics and Catholics for when they put the focus on the Holy Spirit in worship, honoring the Holy Spirit in worship, praying to the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place and even fall on them after a sign, you can get slain in the spirit and holy laughter by that same invocation as well?

    Why would God allow them to suffer that strong delusion unless they are believing a lie and thus in an iniquity for why He permits it?

    How is it that by not heeding His words that He is the only way to God the Father in worship, that they are falling by that spirit when they were addressing the Person of the Holy Spirit in worship?

    Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it...……..

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Then you may know why Jesus did not mention the Holy Spirit in John 5:23 nor John 14:6 as the other way to come to God the Father by in worship or by honoring the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit, "instead" of the Son.
     
    #24 HopefulNChrist, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    HNC I am not sure what you are asking me if indeed you are asking me anything or are your questions generic, rhetorical I cannot tell so bear with me please.

    Why people put the emphasis on the Holy Spirit in worship I don't know and though I worship the Holy Ghost in the quietness of my heart I would feel uncomfortable in a worship service of that nature.

    I don't think it rises to an allegation of seducing spirits but perhaps of ignorance of the scriptures you have pointed out. that the Spirit is here in the world to convict the world of sin and among believers to speak of and bring glory to Christ and not Himself as it does indicate in scripture that He desires to have a passive presence in the church (some will disagree).

    Though He being a member of the Trinity, He is Holy and we would be unworthy to be in His presence except that Christ has redeemed and cleansed us and so we being redeemed and cleansed don't just ignore Him - we IMO can through the merits of Jesus Christ give Him quiet personal worship as He is a member of the Holy Trinity.
     
  6. HopefulNChrist

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    The Lord has to help me, brother, and I am trusting Him to so okay.

    Nicene creed of 381 A.D. can be seen as held responsible.

    The Holy Spirit does not have to be in the world to do that when He is in us to do that.

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    The Father draws men unto the Son; John 6:44 and He reveals the Son even to babes ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) so He knows whom seeks Him to receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds : John 3:18-21

    If you mean the worship place where believers gather, then I disagree, specially when our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit now as a testimony to the Jews that would have the Presence of God at their Temple in Jerusalem. So there is a need to be in according to our faith as dwelling in us always to oppose the former things and to stand apart from other spirits in the world.

    We would not be led by the Holy Spirit to even give Himself a quiet worship. Those led by the Spirit of God would be doing exactly what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do; to honor the Son by testifying of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son, and thereby honoring and glorifying God the Father and that is especially in worship, not just the mission field.
     
  7. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Let's see, every Christian who professes the Nicene creed knows that we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost - it is self evident that the words you posted at the top testifies to that. Do you mean you really cannot see or understand that?

    There is no such error in the Nicene creed.

    Are you serious? The Church, the Bride of Christ, is not Holy? Good grief, where do you get such ideas? Your misreading of the text is unbelievable and ideas like that borders on blasphemy!

    No! Never! Such a thing cannot be! I am a sinful man, but when I go to worship at Church, the church (consisting of all believers), the place of God, where we worship Jesus Christ, all that is holy as a matter of course, while I am striving to be.

    We put our focus on Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, we have altars in our churches and that is what we hold dearly to the highest degree. The Holy Spirit is part of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit is indeed worshipped as well because of that - they cannot be separated.
     
    #27 Adonia, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  8. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Oh my, you have now dug yourself into one terrible hole! You are without a doubt dissing the Holy Spirit by those kind of thoughts and ideas and you have arrived at a place devoid of reason towards the Holy Trinity and especially the Holy Spirit. May God have mercy on your soul.
     
    #28 Adonia, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  9. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Agreed.

    Again, well said. It is clear you have a profound respect for the Holy Spirit in the right context of the Triune Godhead. While you may not at this point agree with Catholic doctrines, you know as well as I that above all we place Jesus Christ at the apex of worship at Mass via the Holy Eucharist. The Holy Spirit does indeed have a place and presence in Church as we call upon Him to assist us in worship.

    Perfect!
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I believe you are incorrect in some of your assumptions HNC

    e.g. reproval/conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit.

    John 16
    7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
    8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

    As a personal testimony HNC I was in the military when saved.
    I had no Christian friends and only the scriptures and the Spirit of God to guide me.

    It certainly was not seducing spirits which opened my heart and mind to understand the seriousness of my sinfulness via the scripture and to seek the Savior or the great joy that came over me as my sins disappeared when Jesus cleansed me.

    The Spirit of God is the third person of the Holy Trinity and my guide which leads me through life.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
     
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