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Featured Understanding John 1:14

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 20, 2022.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John 1:14 (NASB)
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:14 (NLT)
    So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

    Several Greek words are used in this verse with vague or controversial meanings. Among them are "Word," "flesh," "glory," "only or one and only," "from," "grace," and "truth."

    The Greek word translated as "Word" is the Greek word "Logos" (G3056) and refers to the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. Some claim that "Logos" did not become the Son until the incarnation, but others point to scripture referring to the Son before becoming flesh. The role of Logos within the Trinity is to carry out the purpose of the Father. And this eternal subordinate function can be referred to as "sonship" although the word "son" carries with it the idea of being created by action of the Father, which is heresy.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    If John 1:18 correcty reads Son then all appearances of God in the OT was the Son. Not merely some secondary unique God as Yahweh.
     
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  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    What is the meaning of Logos not relative to second person but relative to 'ĕlōhîm

    “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. John 1:1,2

    Is the Word different now than in John 1:1,2. Was the Word as the Word heir of God?

    Is my concept of Jesus a human being conceived of a virgin out of Spirit, yet in flesh, Holy, and God with us, totally wacko?
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, I have no actual idea of your concept of Jesus.

    The Greek word (G3056) is used to convey more than one meaning, but one of its meaning is the Second Person of the Trinity. This makes Logos relative not only to the Second Person of the Trinity, but as God, Logos is relative to Elohim.
    Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity is God and therefore is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. (Hebrews 13:8)
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If we translate monogenes as "uniquely divine" when the word refers to the Second Person of the Trinity, and we accept that God and not Son appears next in the text, we get "uniquely divine God." And that can only refer to God incarnate, Jesus the Christ.

    I have not studied whether all of God's physical manifestations described in the OT were God the Son, rather than the conventional view of being the Father.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Our next multiple meaning word is "flesh" which is used to refer to humans, or the physical material of our bodies, i.e flesh and blood or flesh and bone, and to refer our sinful fallen nature. Clearly Jesus was a physical human made of the same physical material that other humans are made of. Jesus did not have a "sinful fallen nature" so that definitely was not the intended meaning. :)
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    monogenes. Means to be unique. Like in Hebrews 11:17 regarding Abraham's son.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Abraham's son was not uniquely divine!

    If we translate monogenes as "uniquely divine" when the word refers to the Second Person of the Trinity, then we do not use that meaning when human offspring are in view.

    The word means "one of a kind" and how is Jesus one of a kind, he is uniquely divine as God incarnate.
     
    #8 Van, Jun 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The word monogenes never means to be divine. It is used 9 times in the New Testament, 4 of those who are childern of a human parent. Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, Luke 9:38 and Hebrews 11:17. Jesus is uniquely God's very Son. As opposed to angels, Job 38:7.
     
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I will try and explain my thought. The following is what is said about (G3056) Logos translated Word.

    1. of speech
      1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

      2. what someone has said
        1. a word

        2. the sayings of God

        3. decree, mandate or order

        4. of the moral precepts given by God

        5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets

        6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
      3. discourse
        1. the act of speaking, speech

        2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking

        3. a kind or style of speaking

        4. a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
      4. doctrine, teaching

      5. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

      6. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law

      7. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
    2. its use as respect to the MIND alone
      1. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating

      2. account, i.e. regard, consideration

      3. account, i.e. reckoning, score

      4. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment

      5. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
        1. reason would
      6. reason, cause, ground
    3. In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
    Now my thought is the following was with God and was God.
    1. of speech
      1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
      2. what someone has said
        1. a word
        2. the sayings of God
        3. decree, mandate or order
        4. of the moral precepts given by God
        5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
        6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
      3. discourse
        1. the act of speaking, speech
        2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
        3. a kind or style of speaking
        4. a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
      4. doctrine, teaching
      5. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
      6. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
      7. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
    2. its use as respect to the MIND alone
      1. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
      2. account, i.e. regard, consideration
      3. account, i.e. reckoning, score
      4. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
      5. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
        1. reason would
      6. reason, cause, ground


    That in bold became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten Son of the Father

    The living, speaking God became flesh.

    Whereas most want to use a concept of man of interpretation of the Word of God using;
    In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

    I believe that robs God of what God has said He has and is doing.

    Example.

    IMHO for most, the concept of Jesus totally nullifies to possibility of the following taking place;
    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

    For God to destroy the devil and his works God had to die the death. Whatever death is God had to experience (taste) it.
    How could an eternal God die?

    How about through a Son. of flesh, subject to death and corruption? Then saved out of death and corruption my the Father of him.

    Did that take place or did it not take place.

    and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, Heb 5:9

    Did that in bold take place or not? Did it take place in the lowest parts of the earth? Hades?

    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself

    I wonder if that passage from PS 139 was one of the ones he pointed out to them?

    There is a reason i post IMHO so often.
     
  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    If you translated μονογενής as "uniquely divine," you'd be uniquely wrong. The word means "unique" and has been used as "only." You still can't seem to grasp that you can't translated stuff into Greek that isn't there.

    If you translated μονογενής as "uniquely divine," what--then--do you do when Isaac is described as Abraham's "μονογενής" in Hebrews 11:17? Are you really prepared to argue that Isaac was divine? If you translate μονογενής as "uniquely divine," then you must also argue that Isaac was divine... as well as the boy with the unclean spirit in Luke 9.

    You are simply wrong.

    The Archangel
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I completely disagree. Jesus is one of a kind because He is God incarnate, uniquely divine. And for the third time, the word is used for more than one meaning, and the meaning when used to describe Jesus is that He is uniquely divine. And you agree stating "Jesus is uniquely God's very Son."
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another taint so post, ignoring that the word has a range of meanings. The word means "one of o kind" and is translated as "unique" in several English translations. The reason Jesus is unique is that He is divine.
     
    #13 Van, Jun 21, 2022
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Rather than speech or message, John uses Logos to refer to Jesus Christ, the third meaning for logos that you posted and did not bold.
     
    #14 Van, Jun 21, 2022
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is your understanding. Do you have another commentator or commentators who hold that term monogenes carries the notion of divinity?
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, of course. But note I said Jesus is unique, in that He is uniquely divine, so the "notion" comes from using the word to describe Jesus, and not from using the word to describe others.

    NET Bible Footnote:

    37tn Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clement 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant. 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God (τέκνα θεοῦ, tekna qeou), Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18).
     
    #16 Van, Jun 21, 2022
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is a link which validates that Jesus is uniquely divine:
    How is Jesus Christ unique? | GotQuestions.org

    And here is a snippet from another site:
    The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God’s Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.​
     
    #17 Van, Jun 21, 2022
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is another snippet of commentary:

    Jesus’ divinity is a second emphasis implicit in the phrase “Son of God”. It“indicates that the Son is to be identified with the Father and considered fully and absolutely equal to Him” (Lioy 2003:116; cf. John 5:18; 10:30, 36). In a previous study (Lioy 2005:82), I noted that the appearance of monogenes (literally, “only begotten”) draws attention to Jesus’ “unique, special, [and] one-of-a-kind” relationship with the Father; in other words, the Lord Jesus is the “one and only Son of the Father” (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). As such,Jesus is the extraordinary object of the Father’s love, co-equal with the Fatherand the Spirit, and the “enfleshment of the divine”. This is not a peripheral
    doctrine, for as O’Collins (2002:3; italics in the original) notes, the divinity of the Son “stands or falls with accepting his
    personal pre-existence within the eternal life of the Trinity
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A side note directly related to being "made flesh" in John 1:14. John 1:3 strongly suggests that the Word Himself brought about His own change being the sole agent of cause being God too, John 1:1-3.
     
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    While Jesus is unique and He is divine, it's not because of the word μονογενής. Again.... If you insist, as you wrongly do, that it means "divine" in some way, then Isaac is divine as well as the boy in Luke 9.

    58.52 μονογενής, ές: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class—‘unique, only.’ τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ‘he gave his only Son’ Jn 3:16; τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἀπέσταλκεν ὁ θεός ‘God sent his only Son’ 1 Jn 4:9; τὸν μονογενῆ προσέφερεν ὁ τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀναδεξάμενος ‘he who had received the promises presented his only son’ or ‘… was ready to offer his only son’ He 11:17. Abraham, of course, did have another son, Ishmael, and later sons by Keturah, but Isaac was a unique son in that he was a son born as the result of certain promises made by God. Accordingly, he could be called a μονογενής son, since he was the only one of his kind.

    Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 590.​

    The "deity" idea of John 1:14 comes from the phrase δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός which would be "glory as the unique Son from the Father." It does not come from μονογενής the word.

    The Archangel
     
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