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Understanding Romans 8:5-9

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    VAN...here is a hint...
    Unable means unable......it does not mean sometimes able...it means unable

    unable does not mean the unregenerate can receive the milk
    it means they are unable

    you say;
    God says they are UNABLE......I will believe God on this one:thumbs:
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Calvinism rewrites the meaning of words, so unable means unable at any time. So when I travel to Catalina Island and am unable to see land, that means I was unable before I left the shore and after I arrived on the island. This is the sort of twaddle offered in defense of Calvinism. Words have meaning and the inspired Word is corrupted by those who redefine their meaning to fit their agenda.
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Paul: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    IMHO The gift of the Holy Spirit puts us in Christ a position which makes us heirs, not inheritors.

    Matt. 1:20 Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (being generated) in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    We by the Spirit of God are in Christ, in the Spirit, being generated.

    In whom ye also, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ in you, the body dead because of sin; but the Spirit life because of righteousness.
    But (And) if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    The moment that happens you will be regenerated and will inherit and enter the kingdom of God.

    That person being generated in Mary above, Jesus died for you and me, said the following in context of a conversation he had with the rich young ruler concerning inheriting eternal life, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Did that person Jesus laying dead in the tomb have to be regenerated?
     
  4. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I told you in another thread that you would have to stretch some scriptures to great lengths to harmonise with your doctrine, and you just stretched some in these comments. It's plain and simple, If you do not have the indwelling Spirit you cannot descern spiritural things, they are foolishness to you, yes, even the milk of the word which has to be spiritually descerned.
     
  5. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Wrong, there is no scriptual proof to back up your statement.
     
  6. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    We all were "DEAD" (spiritually dead) until we are quickened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The born again person then has two natures, the flesh and the Spirit, and these two natures war against each other as Paul explains, but the natural man only has one nature so he cannot descern anything of a spiritual nature, not even the milk of the word.
     
  7. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Give me your scripture that says the unregenerate can understand the milk of the word. I can't find it saying that.
     
  8. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I think that you have a missconception of who are saved and who are not. Most salvation scriptures are not refering to eternal salvation, but to timely salvations.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Is that not beside the point? You say the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, such as the gospel. But the passage you cited 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches the natural man cannot understand spiritual things discerned with the aid of the Spirit, for they are not indwelt, but the natural man can understand the milk of the gospel. Therefore your premise is unbiblical
     
  10. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    [sarcasm]God isn't holy all the time. It says God is holy. some people add that God is holy all the time. But this extrapolation is not actually in the text.[/sarcasm]


    Unable means unable. It doesn't say unable some of the time. If it says unable, it means exactly that. Praise God for saving unable people!
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Forest, I did not stretch scripture, Calvinism extrapolates scripture beyond its contextual basis. Unable means unable at that point in time and does not address past and future abilities. Even if you are unable to comprehend that truth, it does not suggest that someday you will not comprehend it.

    It is plain and simple, if you do not have the indwelling of the Spirit you cannot understand spiritual things. But is that some spiritual things or all spiritual things? The text does not say. For you and Calvinism to claim it refers to all spiritual things, is an unwarranted extrapolation in light of 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

    Saying that 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 does not say Paul spoke to the babes in Christ as if they were men of flesh, because they could not understand meat, but could understand milk is to deny the obvious.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Ah, we have Jbh28 posting adsurdity again, with the premise when anything is said, it applies at all times. Mark 2:4, NASB says unable applies to the situation at hand and may not apply at other times. Ditto for Luke 1:20. And on and on. Calvinism uses shuck and jive to make a muddle of truth.
     
  13. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    unable means unable. As you are unable to understand that unable means unable. no ability. It doesn't mean some of the time as you like to add to it. anyway, back to ignore you go....


    ah......
     
  14. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    pretty simple!

    Apostle paul showing us that we can chose to either live in our fleshly natures, and reap bad harvest, who chose to live in/by the HS empowering us, and in that way fulfill the law and reap a spiritual harvest!
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again if we set our minds on the things of the flesh, fleshly desires, ungodly desires, we are unable to please God. This verse does not address if we set our minds on godly desires, what the outcome will be. However, other verses throughout the Bible teach we can seek God and trust in Christ. Therefore, this verse must be understood to be say when our minds are set on fleshly desires, we are unable to please God.

    More deflection and avoidance! Who does the "we" refer to? Born again believers? Or unregenerates? or both. Notice in the Calvinists "simplied" view, the passage only addresses born again folks, sidestepping the contentious issue presented.

    Do you hear the music? Runaway.
     
  16. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    The elect after they have been quickened to spiritual life, do still carry the baggage of their flesh, they have two natures dewling inside of them. Paul explains this by the warfare going on inside of us. The natural man who hasen't been quickened has only one nature and that is the natural nature, so, yes, the born again person can be wicked and fleshly at times. 1 Cor 3:3 is talking about people who are born of the Spirit but lack a knowledge of the meat of the gospel. The natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot understand even the milk of the word because even the milk of the word has to be spiritually descerned.
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    van...this is what you really meant to post!

    Van...we get it now...you post in a novel code...we now can translate it..here is the translation of what you really meant to post.

    Folks, Calvinism is a true doctrine, and it is obvious if you just read scripture. I deny verse after verse, James 2:5 does not mean what it says, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 does not mean what it says, Romans 9:16 does not mean what it says, Romans 8:5-9 does not mean what it says, and on and on.

    The OP explains my view of Romans 8:5-9, and thus far many credible arguments have been offered to refute my view.

    I was charged with not addressing Romans 8:7-8, but I quoted it and explained it away. guilty as charged #1.

    I contradict myself. charge #2

    I willfully pervert scripture. charge #3

    In baseball, three strikes and you are out. :)

    most of my posts are shuck and jive, twaddle and fiddlesticks....folks.

    I am going to make myself a hot chocolate a read a portion from Calvins Institues now....:wavey::wavey: Tulip is the truth:thumbs:
     
    #37 Iconoclast, Feb 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2012
  18. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Now, Now Icon,

    I take "issue" with this. You know

    "I am the way, the truth and the life..." (Jesus)

    Tulip is but a systematized interpreted version of "truth". Now on to my coffee, "Newmans Own" keurig. :)
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Forest, Paul spoke to the babes in Christ as men of flesh. Now why would Paul do that if men of flesh could not understand. Your view makes no sense.

    So by the numbers, your assertion that people are made alive before they are put spiritually in Christ has absolutely no support in scripture, but instead scripture says we are made alive, quickened when we are together with Christ. Strike One

    The natural man can understand the milk of the gospel, so he can set his mind sometimes on spiritual things. Romans 9:30-33 has men seeking God by works or by faith, but both are seeking God. The Rich young ruler was seeking God. Total Spiritual inability is unbiblcial, a fiction of man. Strke Two

    Read Romans 11 and ask yourself why did God need to harden the hearts of the unbelieving Jews if they were unable to receive the truth?
    Answer, total spiritual inability is inconsistent with scripture, because if it were true, no hardening would have been necessary. Strike three.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Misrepresenting the views of others creates an environment that hinders the serious study of God's word.
     
    #40 Van, Feb 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2012
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