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Featured Understanding the NT re: eternal security

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Apr 4, 2021.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Actually, pretty much EVERYTHING.

    And so Jesus was asked what must one do to be saved, SO he walked up the mount and said "CAN'T,......Either God will pick you if he likes you OR he will damn you since he hated you since before the foundation, So Jesus stretched his arms forth among the crowd, smokem if you gottem and buckle up!"

    For starters, Reformed Theology rejects the traditions of men and relies exclusively on what Scripture actually says ... that whole "Sola Scriptura" thing ... and the word of God says what you quote Jesus as saying nowhere in its pages. For that reason alone, any Reformed Theologian would question it.

    • And so Jesus was asked what must one do to be saved, SO he walked up the mount and said "CAN'T
    1. Jesus never rejected anyone that sought Him out.
    2. God has always clearly proclaimed what man must do.
    3. Man has shown a steadfast and unwavering unwillingness to obey God (starting with Adam and, according to scripture, including all men without exception).
    4. So the reformed teach that men are UNABLE to save themselves (which is the same things that Catholics teach) and the reformed teach that men are UNWILLING to approach Jesus without the Father first drawing them to Him (John 6:44, Acts 16:14).
    • Either God will pick you if he likes you OR he will damn you since he hated you since before the foundation
    1. The Reformed teach that God loves the saints, which is also what the Catholic Church teaches.
    2. The Reformed teach that only God knows why he chooses to save one and to not save another, because Scripture says that the choices of God are not due to any merit in those saved and God does ALL THINGS "according to the council of His will" (because God chose to do it).
    3. The only one that Scripture states that God hates is Esau, so that is the only person that we claim that God hates.
    4. "UNWILLING" (from above) means that God does not CHOOSE to damn people, people choose to damn themselves by rejecting God. ALL PEOPLE CHOOSE DEATH. That is not God hating men, rather that is men hating God.
    5. Before the foundation, God chose not to allow all men to damn themselves and predestined some to be saved in spite of themselves FOR HIS GLORY.
    • So Jesus stretched his arms forth among the crowd, smokem if you gottem and buckle up!"
    1. Jesus would never advocate either fatalism or smoking. ;)
     
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  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Bro, @utilyan's post was a satire...
     
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  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Fatalism
    noun
    1. the belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

    What's wrong with smoking? :Laugh


    PS. I love how organized your last response was.:Cry:Laugh:Cry:Laugh:Roflmao
     
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  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I remember in our church many years ago when I was a youngster, that the sisters in the church told the men... You brethren need to get rid of that nasty habit, because you know where it is going to lead too... So I ask my Dad, fearing the worst... Dad will smoking send you to Hell?... He just kind of chuckled and said... No Son, but it will make you smell like you've been there!... Brother Glen:Laugh
     
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  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    That was wise of your father. Sounds like he had a good balance.
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Thats pretty funny I never heard of that one. :Laugh
     
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You should read some of the very very grave and sober lectures I get over a light-hearted comment.
    It's like they have an over-riding reflex that forces them to reprove anything that wiggles.
    I told one Calvinist brother here that reproved me over a very "serious" sin of mine not to worry cuz I'd say a couple of "Hail Mary's" that night so I should be fine. The guy took me seriously, wagging his head with all the gravity of a great-horned owl. The more he took it seriously, the more I chuckled. Ah...good times with the brethren, even when they doubt my salvation, ha! :Laugh
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Satire: the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. [Oxford]​

    Is ridicule of beliefs appropriate among "Bros"?

    [Galatians 5:15]
     
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yeah right.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I can feel your love and concern. :Inlove
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    atpollard in post #61 did a very good job.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Predestination

    Predestination, in Christianity, the doctrine that God has eternally chosen those whom he intends to save. In modern usage, predestination is distinct from both determinism and fatalism and is subject to the free decision of the human moral will, but the doctrine also teaches that salvation is entirely due to the eternal decree of God.

    predestination | Definition, Doctrines, & Theology

    Where this definition is flawed is in stating that God is subject under free will. Such a statement is that of an unredeemed pagan writing the definition.

    Question: Do you agree with the definition. Does the human will subject God's will under it's supreme authority?
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Can God even limit Himself in such a way to allow that to ever happen though?
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Yet free will theology ultimately declares that God indeed is subdued by the will of men, making God impotent to save the one who would refuse.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Does God get angry at a sinner's sin?
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Yup:
    • [Exo 4:14 NASB95] 14 Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
    • [Exo 32:11, 22 NASB95] 11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? ... 22 Aaron said, "Do not let the anger of my lord burn; you know the people yourself, that they are prone to evil.
    • [Exo 34:6 NASB95] 6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
    • [Num 11:1, 10, 33 NASB95] 1 Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard [it,] His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed [some] of the outskirts of the camp. ... 10 Now Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, each man at the doorway of his tent; and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly, and Moses was displeased. ... 33 While the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the anger of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very severe plague.
    • [Num 12:9 NASB95] 9 So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed.
    • [Num 14:18 NASB95] 18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear [the guilty,] visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth [generations.]'
    • [Num 25:4 NASB95] 4 The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel."
    • [Num 32:13-14 NASB95] 13 "So the LORD'S anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the LORD was destroyed. 14 "Now behold, you have risen up in your fathers' place, a brood of sinful men, to add still more to the burning anger of the LORD against Israel.
    • [Deu 4:25 NASB95] 25 "When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God [so as] to provoke Him to anger,
    • [Deu 6:15 NASB95] 15 for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.
    • [Deu 7:4 NASB95] 4 "For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.
    • [Deu 9:18-19 NASB95] 18 "I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all your sin which you had committed in doing what was evil in the sight of the LORD to provoke Him to anger. 19 "For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was wrathful against you in order to destroy you, but the LORD listened to me that time also.
    • [Deu 11:17 NASB95] 17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
    • [Deu 13:17 NASB95] 17 "Nothing from that which is put under the ban shall cling to your hand, in order that the LORD may turn from His burning anger and show mercy to you, and have compassion on you and make you increase, just as He has sworn to your fathers,
    • [Deu 29:20, 23-24, 27-28 NASB95] 20 "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. ... 23 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.' 24 "All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' ... 27 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book; 28 and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.'
    • [Deu 31:29 NASB95] 29 "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."
    (and many, many more ...)
     
  17. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Member

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    2 Corinthians 4:16 KJV
    [16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

    For those who are truly born again, they are renewed day by day in Christ because his blood has made an atonement for them. There is still sin in the flesh, but not in the inward man that is saved by grace. If he saved the outward man, it wouldn’t have to perish.

    John 10:27-29 KJV
    [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    One that’s truly born again shall never perish.

    Ecclesiastes 7:20 KJV
    [20] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.


    Romans 7:9-25 KJV
    [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    The apostle Paul shows us he was in a continuous warfare with the flesh (outward man). He recognized the sinfulness of the flesh, but was thankful for being able to place faith in Christ work and not Paul’s work.

    Ephesians 4:30 KJV
    [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Colossians 3:3 KJV
    [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    1 Peter 1:5 KJV
    [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Samuel 16:7 KJV
    [7] But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

    2 Corinthians 10:7 KJV
    [7] Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

    Does God’s grace give us a license to sin? No, God forbid. But when we as God’s children sin, the Holy Spirit lets us know before we sin and after, so we repent to stay in fellowship with the Lord. If not, he will judge us here, so we’re not judged for eternity in hell.

    1 Corinthians 11:31-32 KJV
    [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    Romans 6:11-12 KJV
    [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    In order to reign here on earth with the Lord in this present time and have victory in this life, we keep this outward man under subjection.

    1 John 5:4-5 KJV
    [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
     
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  18. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Loaded question.

    The will of God for the salvation of all men is simply his desire. In this case, it's not an active fiat.
    God desires all men to repent. That doesn't automatically imply that all men will desire to repent.
    Thus his will (desire) is frustrated.
    And I wouldn't give you 2 cents for a God who can't experience frustration because then he could not be touched with the feeling of our infirmities and he could not be a gracious God.

    God, in his "sovereignty" ordained for man, even lost man, to have a free will, and allowed a universe of creatures which constantly frustrate his own desires when it comes to specific areas. Hence @utilyan's question about God being angry at sin, which @atpollard pretended not to understand in his answer.

    This has no bearing at all on the fact that God, in the other areas where he has not bound himself to the free will of angels and men, does whatever he wants without any resisting him.

    God in his own will chose to allow his will (desire) to sometimes be eternally frustrated.
    It's pretty simple.
    But oh no, the Calvinist brethren, being more royal than the king, will not allow the soooooovereign God to limit himself. Apparently, God is not that sovereign after all. He's a linear computer program.
     
    #78 George Antonios, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Not for sanctimoniousness. Sorry.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sanctimonious? ... not at all.

    When you call people "brother" while insulting and attacking them, you set the bar so low that it just becomes difficult not to APPEAR "morally superior" in comparison to such depraved and unloving behavior. It was simple "sarcasm" responded to in kind.

    I am beginning to suspect that you may not actually be a "brother" of mine at all. There are definite "tare-like" qualities to your posts.
     
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