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Featured Univeralism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 25, 2023.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Are you suuuuuuure?

    I don't know what God does on that issue.

    He doesn't clearly say and would if He wanted us to know.

    My question is that if God does have vessels of destruction that are under the arbitrary age of 12, or 8, or 6 months, or pre-born, as He does adult vessels of destruction, do you love and Worship Him, as the God that that would make Him out to be? anyway? still?

    There are a lot of things that go down which are a challenge for us to grasp about God and His Justice at punishing sin for all Eternity is one and how He could have an Accomplished Plan of Salvation for those He has Mercy upon is another.

    Because God is God and we're not.

    But, do we love God for Who He says He is?

    He just doesn't happen to tell us about the destiny of all unborn babies or infants, so we don't have to make up guesses about it, one way or another.

    We simply have to Worship God for what we know and what we don't understand or what we don't know and may never.

    The point is, if He allows us to have anything near what Job did happen to us or someone else, do we love Him in spite of all those things like Job was Enabled by His Spirit to do?

    That's what it takes, for the unthinkable.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John 3:18 says babies are condemned for unbelief. To claim they were not really condemned because they are not done anything bad is baseless conjecture, precluded by scripture.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Justification of life to all people refers to having the sin burden, what God has against the individual, removed such that a person goes from unholiness to holiness, from spiritually dead, separated from God to being spiritually alive, together with Christ. This reconciliation is not applied to all people, but must be "received" through credited faith in the truth.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No it doesn't. Babies are never mentioned.

    No it isn't:

    20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
    21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    5
    but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

    A baby has no 'works'.
     
    #44 kyredneck, Jul 27, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2023
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It's 'all anthropos' not all people, and there's absolutely no mention of any requirement on our part to receive this FREE GIFT.

    If Adam's judgement came unto every human being, then Christ's free gift came unto every human being. Period.

    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 2

    10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 1 Tim 4

    9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
    29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! Jn 1

    The free gift from the Last Adam cancelled out the judgement from the first Adam.
     
    #45 kyredneck, Jul 27, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2023
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...and I leave the stage to you @Van, do your performance for your audience - "Folks...."
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    .
    Mark 10:14-15, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) John 3:18 says the one who does not believe, and babies do not believe, thus condemned already at conception.

    2) No one said or suggested a baby was condemned because they had done [bad] works. They were "made" sinners before having done anything good or bad, Romans 5:19 and Romans 9:11.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:11 (NASB)
    And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

    Romans 5:18 (NASB)
    So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.

    Anthropos is a Greek word that has the meaning of all mankind, all humanity, all people.
    Romans 5:18 clearly mentions the requirement to "receive" the reconciliation.

     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, we cannot nullify John 3:18, all mankind is condemned for unbelief, meaning only those whose faith has been credited as righteousness are not condemned, by pointing to young people seeking Jesus.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So you believe those little children must be capable of faith. Wow. Mark 10:15 is our requirement. The little children who die as little children already are.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Your view reads into scripture what is not there. I do not believe they must be capable of faith, but rather they must use their capability and believe.

    Mark 10:15 has nothing to do with the topic. Just the opposite, it extols the capacity of children to accept and trust in God.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    And yours don't.
    It states the essential requirement to enter the kingdom of God. We either meat it or we are all toast.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Right, I try to derive the meaning from the text rather than read into the text a doctrinal presupposition. The requirement to enter the kingdom is for God to choose to place an individual into the kingdom based on crediting his or her faith as righteousness. If not the individual is condemned already for unbelief. See Colossians 1:13, Romans 4:23-25 and John 3:18.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What does the bible say in the consequence of Adams sin?

    Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
    Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:19 says because of the transgression of one [Adam] the many are made sinners. That is the consequence of Adam's sin.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What did God say?
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    That's as cold as any hardcore Calvinist ever was.

    So, Van, have you 'flipped' to the other side? Ro 5:19 no longer referring to 'all men' but to hoi polloi, 'the many'. Ro 9:11 is Calvinism's strongest support for Unconditional Election. Has Zilch to mention about Adam's transgression.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again a question implying my view is the opposite of my view.

    Romans 5:19 NASB
    For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

    Here we have yet another unstated false claim! The idiom of comparing the many with the one, refers to everyone else. Thus the first "many" refers to everyone initially "in Adam," i.e. all humanity, and the second "many" refers to everyone "in Christ" (or to be placed into Christ.).

    As far as Romans 9:11:

    Romans 9:11 NASB
    for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ​

    Clearly the verse has "Zilch" to do with election for salvation, and more to do with God's conditional election of the younger so the older would serve him. Just read the next two verses!!
     
    #59 Van, Jul 29, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2023
  20. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    QUOTE="percho, post: 2855306, member: 9897"]the last enemy is done away -- death; 1 Cor 15:26 YLT

    If Annihilationism is true...Death dies permanently, and has no hold on anyone anywhere ever.
    If the traditional Christian view is believed...Death is an eternally existent reality which continues to forever torment souls.....and it never, ever, ever is defeated or goes away.
    All of God's enemies live forever in the clutches of "death"...and "death" lasts for eternity, and is never defeated. Thus, death never dies.
    If the dead remain dead, then, yes, death can die.
    If God keeps men alive forever...but chooses to lie about what he's doing and calls it "death"....Then, "death" never dies....
    Sure...if God's enemies are all killed, destroyed, and thrown in a lake of fire, as Scripture teaches...then, when those who inherit Eternal life are brought into his kingdom, and God has no enemies...then death truly dies.

    If God keeps people alive forever to torment them...and redefines the word "death" to mean "be alive forever"....then, no, "death" never dies, and words have no meaning, and you shouldn't read the Bible because words mean absolutely nothing.
    BTW I am just asking?
     
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