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Featured Univeralism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 25, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (Romans 5:18 ESV)

    Since the Greek grammar construction of the first phrase "condemnation for all humans" is the same as for the second phrase "justification for all humans" the verse seems to suggests universalism.

    Condemnation was applied to all humans in the first phrase, so why not also apply justification to all humans based on the second phrase?
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once difference is condemnation to all humans, is not exactly the same as justification of life to all humans. What exactly is "justification of life?"
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    About Adam's disobedience. Christ's finished work to provide the gift of eternal life.
    Compare 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord...."

    Babies In Hell 2
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I have read quite a bit on Christian universalism and that is an argument that is used; also:

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    There is also quite a bit of discussion about the use of the Greek word, aión, and its derivatives, in the Bible.
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This view will not hunt as we were all children of wrath, rather than "innocent" before being saved. In order to be a child of wrath, we must start out with God's wrath, not innocent.

    I do not think aion (Stong's 165) has any part in this topic.

    But "condemnation to all humans [in Adam] works with "justification of life to all humans [in Christ].

    But I have not seen where "justification of life" has been explained. The blurb from Thayer's says "unto acquittal, which brings with it the bestowment of life."

    If we back away from reading "in Christ" into the text, we must conclude Christ's sacrifice brought and bought the means of justification of life to all humans. So "condemnation to all humans" might be interpreted as Adam's sin brought the means of condemnation to all men, which God utilized to justly make all humans sinners. OTOH, God utilizes Christ's sacrifice to justly bestow mercy upon human sinners of His choosing.

    Bottom line, Romans 5:18 if properly understood is consistent with only a subset of humanity receiving the reconciliation provided to all humans by Christ's substitutionary sacrifice.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I guess it just didn't register with you....

    9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I was just pointing out something that Christian universalists point to in their theology, which may be of interest to those who are not familiar with Christian universalism.

    God's elect that He chose before the foundation of the world.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    the last enemy is done away -- death; 1 Cor 15:26 YLT

    How?

    If anything that has ever died remains dead has death been, done away?

    Could there be a death of death?


    BTW I am just asking?
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    So, once men become guilty, if all of them had remained in their sin and hatred of God and never came to Jesus for Salvation, they Jesus was still obligated to come die, be buried and rise again for all the unborn infants?

    Just asking? If you see what I'm trying to ask at all.

    I know you still don't want to see a Creator that makes a baby and would send them to hell. Because to Worship a God that may do that (we don't know for sure) would be hard to do, wouldn't it?
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (eBook)
    [​IMG]BY JOHN OWEN
    A TREATISE OF THE REDEMPTION AND RECONCILIATION
    THAT IS IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, WITH THE MERIT THEREOF,
    AND SATISFACTION WROUGHT THEREBY.

    ORIGINAL LANGUAGE
    IN EPUB, .MOBI,.PDF & HTML
    MODERNIZED
    IN EPUB, .MOBI & .PDF FORMATS


    John Owen is not someone I have read after, but according to many posts I've read here on the BB, I am missing an enormous blessing.

    This is a .pdf of his famous book and the table of contents, if any of it strikes your interests

    "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ
    is a polemical work, designed to show, among other things, that the doctrine of universal redemption is unscriptural and destructive of the gospel. There are many, therefore, to whom it is not likely to be of interest. Those who see no need for doctrinal exactness and have no time for theological debates which show up divisions between so-called Evangelicals may well regret its reappearance.

    "Some may find the very sound of Owen’s thesis so shocking that they will refuse to read his book at all; so passionate a thing is prejudice, and so proud are we of our theological shibboleths. But it is hoped that this reprint will find itself readers of a different spirit.

    "There are signs today of a new upsurge of interest in the theology of the Bible: a new readiness to test traditions, to search the Scriptures and to think through the faith. It is to those who share this readiness that Owen’s treatise is offered, in the belief that it will help us in one of the most urgent tasks facing Evangelical Christendom today—the recovery of the gospel."

    -----
    Table of Contents

    Introductory Essay by J. I. Packer

    BOOK I

    Chapter 1. In general of the end of the death of Christ, as it is in the Scripture proposed

    Chapter 2. Of the nature of an end in general, and some distinctions about it

    Chapter 3. Of the agent or chief author of the work of our redemption, and of the first thing distinctly ascribed to the person of the Father

    Chapter 4. Of those things which in the work of redemption are peculiarly ascribed to the person of the Son

    Chapter 5. The peculiar actions of the Holy Spirit in this business

    Chapter 6. The means used by the fore-recounted agents in this work

    Chapter 7. Containing reasons to prove the oblation and intercession of Christ to be one entire means respecting the accomplishment of the same proposed end, and to have the same personal object

    Chapter 8. Objections against the former proposal answered



    BOOK II

    Chapter 9. Some previous considerations to a more particular inquiry after the proper end and effect of the death of Christ

    Chapter 10. Containing a removal of some mistakes and false assignations of the end of the death of Christ

    Chapter 11. More particularly of the immediate end of the death of Christ, with the several ways whereby it is designed

    Chapter 12. Of the distinction of impetration and application -- The use and abuse thereof; with the opinion of the adversaries upon the whole matter in controversy unfolded; and the question on both sides stated

    Chapter 13. Of application and impetration



    BOOK III

    Chapter 14. Arguments against the universality of redemption-The two first; from the nature of the new covenant, and the dispensation thereof

    Chapter 15. Containing three other arguments

    Chapter 16. Containing, two other arguments from the person Christ sustained in this business

    Chapter 17. Of sanctification, and of the cause of faith, and the procurement thereof by the death of Christ

    Chapter 18. Being a continuance of arguments from the nature and description of the thing in hand; and first, of redemption

    Chapter 19. Of the nature of reconciliation, and the argument taken from thence

    Chapter 20. Of the nature of the satisfaction of Christ, with arguments from thence

    Chapter 21. A digression, containing the substance of an occasional conference concerning the satisfaction of Christ

    Chapter 22. Being a second part of the former digression--Arguments to prove the satisfaction of Christ

    Chapter 23. Of the merit of Christ, with arguments from thence

    Chapter 24. The last general argument



    BOOK IV

    Chapter 1. Things previously to be considered, to the solution of objections

    Chapter 2. An entrance to the answer unto particular arguments

    Chapter 3. An unfolding of the remaining texts of Scripture produced for the confirmation of the first general argument for universal redemption

    Chapter 4. Answer to the second general argument for the universality of redemption

    Chapter 5. The last argument from Scripture answered

    Chapter 6. An answer to the twentieth chapter of the book entitled, "The Universality of God's Free Grace," etc., being a collection of all the arguments used by the author throughout the whole book to prove the universality of redemption
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Children of wrath come from wrath, they do not start out children of innocence.
    The Romans 7:9 verse is a well know oddity, with divergent commentary. As far as I am concerned, Paul is referring to becoming aware he was dead in his trespasses and sins.

    Lets back up and consider ourselves from conception. Were we conceived in innocence or in iniquity? See Psalm 51:5.
    However, we had done nothing good or bad, Romans 9:11, but had been "made sinners." See Romans 5:19

    One of the viewpoints I accept, but cannot demonstrate with compelling evidence, is the age of accountability, small children are unaware that their actions violate their undeveloped conscious, and thus as far as they are aware, are alive spiritually rather than knowing they are dead spiritually, having been made sinners. So they, so to speak are "apart" from the law, either the law of their conscious or the Law of God. Thus when we consider sin becoming alive or active, the concept refers to our awareness of our spiritually dead condition, thus we "died."
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God's elect that He chooses during the age of grace, since the subjugation of humanity.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    God is just, He wouldn't do that.

    @Van presents the very same dilemma for you hardshell Calvies that I did in that thread. What's your answer to his question?:

     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How'd you vote in this poll?

    [add]

    I've decided to do the poll again.
     
    #16 kyredneck, Jul 26, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2023
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You mean what is the Biblical answer to Mr. Gross's question?
    1) As I have pointed out time and time again, anytime you see "hell" you need to ask yourself, Hades, Gehenna or both?
    2) What does John 3:18 say? Are babies already condemned due to "unbelief" as they are made sinners?
     
    #17 Van, Jul 26, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2023
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I do not recall voting in that poll, so I cannot answer your question. If I responded in one or more of the threads many pages, please tell me what page number.

    And please answer the question in post #17
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    There's a new poll now.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You forgot to answer the question? Are babies already condemned due to "unbelief" as they are made sinners? John 3:18
     
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