Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Talk about trying to derail the subject, and throw in everything including the kitchen sink. Yet I am prepared for it.

I told you to read the responses already given and you refused, and so now for any interested in truth will read, will study, and you will be embarrassed as I said (I did try to keep you from looking like one ignorant (unknowledgeable)), but, I will let it be as you desired). I will provide the links again, and if you read, all of those things are already answered:



15 (so called) Bible Contradictions from Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

7 (so called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

Defending The Spirit Of Prophecy – Vance Ferrell (PDF)

Plagiarism Charges Of Walter Rea and his White “Lie” – Proved False – Vincent Ramik Report (PDF)

On Michael:

TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Who Is Michael Archangel?

Additional links for you:

Ellen G. White

Ellen White’s Alleged Contradictions, Adventist Prophet

Ellen White’s Alleged Contradictions, Adventist Prophet, Page Two

Critique of Jeremiah Films' Video on Adventism: Intro, Indexes, Points #1-#20

Table of Contents of "A Response to the Video"

The Official Adventist Defense League

Defending SOP

Ellen G. White and Her Critics — Ellen G. White Writings

Ellen White

EllenWhiteDefend Home Page

 

Show me the word "sabbath", "law", "commandment/s", "the 7th day" in the passages of Romans 14.

Romans 14, the quick of it.
This is used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

Let's look at the details of Romans 14.

Romans 14, deals with the days that "man esteemeth" among men, see Luke 16:15. God esteems His Holy day [Job 23:12; Psalms 119:126-128].

The "day" in Romans 14 is associated with eating and not eating, among "men", which are days set apart for men for fasting/feasting, etc. The Jews had constantly fought with one another over which days were better to do this or that [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12]. Some Jews decide that any day was fine to do any of those things, while others had specific days picked out for those things [see also the historical source the "Didache"]. Paul stated it didn't matter, and each was fine, so long as either side did it unto the LORD, to the glory of God, not for personal gain/prestige/notice [as the Pharisees had done], but that what mattered was brotherly love within the body, preferring one another. Connect Romans 14, to 1 Corinthians 8-10. There were issues with the Gentile believers purchasing food in the shambles [marketplaces] which may have been blessed or offered before idols, and some Jews, and possibly Gentiles believers which took offence at anyone partaking of those things. Paul stated that an Idol is nothing, but the persons for whom Christ Jesus died were of value, and therefore, regard the conscience of another, and cause no one to sin, even if what was eaten was immediately lawful to a person, but such freedom within God's law, not everything is always expedient, or best to do at all times. There were also Jewish beleivers in Christ who still under their vows, even Nazarite vows, and thus things of the vine in matters of eating and drinking would come into play as well. Just because Christ Jesus died on the Cross, doesn't negate their vow - they still had to carry out what they said they would do. If you Read Romans 1-13, the Law, the Ten Comamndments of God are spoken of and cited throughout, as eternal, as the judge of sin [Romans 7:7; in fact how did you know you needed as Saviour? What Law was transgressed by yourself? Exodus 20:1-17], and Romans 15-16 continue and complete this picture. God's Ten Commandments are Eternal [Psalms 89:34], His Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Heavens and New Earth [Isaiah 66:22-23].

 

Colossians 2, parallels Ephesians 2, and Hebrews 9-10. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 with other texts. The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38]. The Ten Commandmnents, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10].


Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink"
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks"

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"

etc.
It's easy to ignore the study that I posted on these texts already, which I wrote. It's easy to turn a willingly blind eye to evidence when it doesn't suit your own sins and rebellion to God, even to Jesus commandment to repent [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6].
It speaks of plural, "sabbath days" (or 'of sabbaths'). The context, is also not concerned with all 'sabbaths' but is limited in scope, to that which is "shadow" (not light, not body or substance), that which is "of things to come" (type pointing to the future events) and of "ordinances", as follows.


[1] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, of Creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), was given to mankind (Adam) before the sin of mankind (Mark 2:27), before the need of shadow and type, which were given after the sin of mankind, under the Levitical priesthood.

[2] The Sabbath of the LORD the God, is a memorial (pointing backwards, thu the words "Remember" (Exodus 20:8)), to a perfect world without sin, perfect relationship, perfect rest), and is not pointing to the future.

[3] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is singular and specific. "The seventh day" "the sabbath" "of the LORD thy God".


Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 20:8 HOT - זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
Exodus 20:9 HOT - שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
Exodus 20:10 HOT - ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
Exodus 20:11 HOT - כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃

Exodus 20:8 HOT Translit. - zäkhôr et-yôm haSHaBät l'qaD'shô
Exodus 20:9 HOT Translit. - shëshet yämiym Taávod w'äsiytä Käl-m'lakh'Tekhä
Exodus20:10 HOT Translit. -w'yôm haSH'viyiy shaBät layhwäh éloheykhä lo-taáseh khäl-m'läkhäh aTäh ûvin'khä-ûviTekhä av'D'khä waámät'khä ûv'hem'Tekhä w'gër'khä ásher Bish'äreykhä
Exodus 20:11 HOT Translit. - Kiy shëshet-yämiym äsäh y'hwäh et-haSHämayim w'et-hääretz et-haYäm w'et-Käl-ásher-Bäm waYänach BaYôm haSH'viyiy al-Kën Bërakh' y'hwäh et-yôm haSHaBät way'qaD'shëhû š

[4] The Sabbath of the LORD is separate from the yearly festal sabbaths, as denoted in Leviticus 23 (see Leviticus 23:3; then see Leviticus 23:4,38 "beside the sabbaths of the LORD")

[5] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is called "the sabbath of the LORD" (Exodus 20:8-11, etc), and "My sabbaths" (Isaiah 56:4; Ezekiel 20:20), as opposed to theirs, called "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,35), and "her sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,43; 2 Chronicles 26:31; Lamentations 1:7; Hosea 2:11), etc.

[6] Colossians 2, in its entire context says nothing about "the seventh day", but speaks of merely the shadow sabbaths (plural, not singular), and says nothing of "commandment" (as Luke 23:54,56 does), but speaks of worldly "ordinances" (Colossians 2:14,20).

[7] Colossians 2, speaks of "sins" (Colossians 2:13), which is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), of which the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is central, whereas the yearly (and of years) sabbaths are not given in the Ten Commandments at all

More can be said (1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Isaiah 1:13-14; Ezekiel 45:17, 46:1-11; Hosea 2:11, and see also Galatians 4:10; Colossians 2:16), but 7 was a good number to round it off at this point, more in detail in a bit.

 

Here is the original (in Full, though it was only Part of the material):

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18780829-V52-10.pdf

Here is the other Parts (in Full):

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18780905-V52-11.pdf

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18780912-V52-12.pdf

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18780919-V52-13.pdf

The articles was written by D (Dudley) M. (Marvin) Canright, it says so, "Personality of God by Elder D. M.Canright" (Left-hand Column), for he was one of the teachers/editors at the time", who later apostatized and what is interesting is the spirit of persons like D.M. Canright (who himself, individually, was indeed very Semi-Arian to Arian; just as Uriah Smith was and J M Stephenson), who were in opposition to the Holy Ghost/Spirit being a person:

“The Holy Spirit is not a person, not an individual, but is an influence or power proceeding from the Godhead.” - D. M. Canright, “The Holy Spirit,” Signs of the Times, July 25, 1878, 218; D. M. Canright, “The Holy Spirit,” Signs of the Times, August 8, 1878, 236.

Yet, D.M.Canright is in opposition to the plainest statements from scripture [KJB] and the SOP/TOJ, and so all that agree with D.M. Canright likewise:

"... The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person ..." - Ms 20, 1906 (February 7, 1906) par. 32

"... We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, unseen by human eyes, that the Lord God is our Keeper and Helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind. Ms66-1899 (April 13, 1899) par. 11 ..." - Ms 66, 1899 (April 13, 1899) par. 11

D M Canright was in opposition to a lot of things that the official Seventh-day Adventist and James and Ellen White believed and taught. The Publication the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, published many things of many persons, of which were not always endorsed, and some were things simply being studied out (and published, so that the whole body could look and see if there were errors in it), but were published at the request of those editors, or their opponents or by James White, so that the material would later be refuted, and the material in print, so that their ideology could not be later changed to another 'story'.

James White Himself, wrote on the "Personality of God", here, only 11 or so pages, and please read what James White and sister White actually taught which differentiates from Canright -

Personality of God, Page 1 -- Ellen G. White Writings

 

O really? Show me that evidence in the article itself, or in any place in print in the article. You simply made that up. Sister White did not have control over what went into the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, though her husband James White often did, and let things be printed for the reasons stated already.

You are simply attempting to pin Canright's errors upon her.

While Canright was correct in several points, for instance,

"... And then the Bible never uses the phrases, "trinity," "triune God," "three in one," "the holy three," "God the Holy Ghost", etc. ..."

Canright is correct in that statement. However, it is only technically correct in certain respects, since the Bible does not indeed use those specific phrases, yet the Bible does indeed, mention the "three" (1 John 5:7-8) who are indeed "holy" (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8; John 17:11; Acts 4:27,30; Mark 1:8, etc.), and that the "Holy Ghost" is identified as "God" (Acts 5) as elsewhere.

The word "trinity" is tricky, since it carries several definitions, and therfore best left alone in most instances where unhelpful. The one (definition) being attacked primarily by Canright, and others, was the Roman Catholic doctrine, since it included statements about "one", "substance", "immateriality", etc. However, Canright (as others like Uriah Smith; J M Stephenson) also had an erroneous position on the Son and Holy Ghost, which was later identified by James White (R & H, etc), and also by sister White in the book Desire of Ages, and elsewhere. Sister White uses the words "trio" (a word also not found in scripture, but the idea is present), "threefold", etc. She spoke of all three Persons/Beings (and please notice the dates, long after 1878, which is when most of her statements on the subject are noticed, though there are some around this time also, for instance):

"... The divine Son of God [the Father, context] ... was in the form of God, and he thought it not robbery to be equal with God ..." - {RH, December 17, 1872 par. 4,5}

"... the divine Son of God [the Father, context] ..." - {HR, August 1, 1875 par. 2}

"... Christ, the Majesty of Heaven ... He brings his divine power ..." - {HR, October 1, 1877 par. 25,26}

“... Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that he should leave them, go to his Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be his successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. He would represent himself as present in all places by his Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent ...” - Lt 119 February 18, 1895, par. 18

"... third Person of the Godhead ..." - Lt 8, February 6, 1896, par. 2 (referring to the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost)

“... the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God [the Father; context] is a person …” - Ms 66, April 15, 1899, par. 11

"... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the eternal Godhead ..." - Ms 45, May 14, 1904, par. 16; May 14, 1904

"... The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order to fully carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? Lt12-1901 (January 21, 1901) par. 10 ..." - Lt 12, 1901 (January 21, 1901) par. 10

"... Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say: You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me, and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. Ms95-1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. ..." - Ms 95, 1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29

"... Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have accepted the invitation, “Come out from among them, and be ye separate, ... and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” [2 Corinthians 6:17, 18.] “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and of the Spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord.” [2 Corinthians 7:1.] “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” [Colossians 3:1.]

“... The Holy Spirit indites all genuine prayer. I have learned to know that in all my intercessions, the Spirit intercedes for me and for all saints whose intercessions are according to the will of God, never contrary to His will. “The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities,” (Romans 8:26) and the Spirit being God, knoweth the mind of God; therefore in every prayer of ours for the sick, or for other needs, the will of God is to be regarded. “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11. ...” - Lt 11b, 1892 (July 17, 1892) par. 6

“... Lead them to understand that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are heaven’s loving, powerful agencies for the accomplishment of the work of representing God in the world. ...” - Lt 93, 1900 (July 3, 1900) par. 3

"... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. ..." - Ms 21, 1906 (November 1905) par. 11

"... All the intelligences of heaven are in this army. And more than angels are in the ranks. The Holy Spirit, the representative of the Captain of the Lord's host, comes down to direct the battle. Our infirmities may be many, our sins and mistakes grievous; but the grace of God is for all who seek it with contrition. The power of Omnipotence is enlisted in behalf of those who trust in God. {DA 352.2} ..." - Desire of Ages 352.2 (1898)

[3] The Holy Spirit is an intellegence, having the power of Omnipotence, and is more than angels, and is in the ranks of the army of Heaven, and is the representative of:

[2] the Captain [Ruler/Prince], Jesus Christ/Michael the Archangel, the Son of the Father, of:

[1] the Lord [the Father]​

 

Here is what White said of her own pen, not Canright's pen:

"... God has a personality ..." - 10 MR 114.2 [citing MS 130, Oct. 27, 1902]; 18 MR 110.1 [citing MS 130, Oct. 27, 1902], SpM 324.2 [Sept. 23, 1903]

"... God who has a personality. ..." - MS 24, 1891; 7BC 921.9 [citing MS 24, 1891]; 19 MR 250.4 [citing MS 24, 1891]

"... the personality of God ..." - CCh 75.5

"... God ... His personality and His character. ..." - CCh 75.6

"... as verily as has Christ ..." - 10 MR 114.2 [citing MS 130, Oct. 27, 1902], SpM 324.2 [Sept. 23, 1903]

"... individual personalities of the Father and the Son ..." - RH, Aug. 1, 1907, par. 8 [referencing Hebrews chapter 1, verse 3]

"... God and Christ are spoken of as two distinct personalities, each acting in their own individuality. ..." - MR760 18.2

"... These words present God and Christ as two distinct personalities. ..." - 1NL 124.6 [citing undated MS 131]

"... the Holy Spirit has a personality ..." - MS 20, 1906; 20 MR 69.1 [citing MS 20, 1906]

"... The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. ..." - 20 MR 324.2

"... personal God ... a personal, self-existing God ..." - CCh 74.4

"... personal God. ..." - CCh 75.7

"... a personal God. ..." - HL 296.3 [citing U.T. July 3, 1898]

"... There is a personal God, the Father ..." - HL 287.1 [citing U.T. July 3, 1898]

"... God is a Spirit; yet He is a personal being ..." - FLB 40.2

"... As a personal being, God ..." - CCh 75.3; FLB 40.3

"... Christ's person ... Christ is the express image of His Father's person and character." - 10 MR 114.2 [citing MS 130, Oct. 27, 1902]

"... As a personal Saviour He [Jesus] ..." - CCh 75.3

"... there is a personal Christ, the Son. ..." - HL 287.1 [citing U.T. July 3, 1898]

"... He ascended on high as a personal Saviour ..." - HL 296.3 [citing U.T. July 3, 1898]

"... God ... personally ..." - CCh 75.7

etc.

 

You ought to stop watching game shows, they'll rot your brain.

I did already, and it is found in Revelation 12, and several other places, the text being chiastically sealed, in other words, it defined itself line upon line.

No, what you did was quote "you".

I accept the designation from you.

Already been down this road, see previous responses.

I clearly gave Revelation 12.

For one, the persons cited aren't just "some other human commentators", as they were scholars of first rank, leaders of the Reformation and movements that came after, who understood more languages than you, wrote in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic and so many others, who actually wrote Dictionaries (still used today), Leixcons (still used today), Concordances (still sued today), Encyclopedias (still used today), even by those respective movement that remain. Even the Baptists stated such, and put it in their own commentaries.

You simply refuse all those whom God has led by His Holy Spirit to put such in print, and were brave enough to repudiate the Roman errors. You, instead, desire to repudiate all that they fought and died for to keep the Roman ones.

You haven't even shown me the "SCRIPTURE" you claim to believe in, since it is one of your own imagination and exists nowhere in print on earth.

Speaking in 'tongues'?

I cited not that other men said it, but for their scriptures they cited as their proof.

Yep, not in question, at all, and yet you keep trying to make it out to be the issue. Straw-man.

Quoting "you" again. You didn't demonstrate that from the scripture one bit.

Yep, there are other archangels, such as Gabriel, Lucifer, etc. Those are created however, while the Son is the eternal uncreated Messenger of the Father. He far above those.

Yep there are Two main princes, The Son of God, Prince of Peace, and the devil, Prince of Devils:

http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co.../Michael-the-archangel-06-The-Two-Princes.pdf

I showed that to you already.

Of course not. There are several "Princes", one over the forces of Good, and one over the forces of evil. Also the High priests of the sanctuary are also called "princes" (same word), and thus there a multiple therein, with the Son being over them all, and so is yet amongst them also.

Gabriel needed help from Michael/Jesus when battling the devil, not the other way round. Read Daniel 10-12 more carefully.

Only His Father. Gabriel is beneath the Son (Michael), even in knowledge, as Daniel 10 stated. Yet Gabriel, as others are indeed the "fellows" (Hebrews 1) of the Son, since they are all messengers of the Father in their office.

In a certain sense true, since Garbiel has been long time with the Son (Michael), and yet it was the Holy Spirit that gave the details on Michael in the Bible and SoP/ToJ. The Holy Ghost knows more than Gabriel, since even Gabriel must search the word of God as Daniel 10 showed.

 

Personally, I think you are looking into your own heart and reflecting what is there, for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.

[07] Revelation 12, An Unbreakable Chiastic Structure

There is inherently within the very texts of Revelation 12 a very specific structure, a chiastic structure/pattern [1,2,3,3,2,1, or A,B,C,C,B,A, or A,B,C,A,B,C, etc] which cannot be broken [John 10:35].

The Revelation 12 Texts:

Revelation 12:1 - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6 - And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:11 - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:12 - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 12:13 - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 - And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 12:16 - And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Notice the chiastic structure.

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 = Woman, Child and Dragon

[B1] Revelation 12:6 = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days [years]

[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven

[D1] Revelation 12:10 = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory

[D2] Revelation 12:11 = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him
​

[C2] Revelation 12:12 = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus' body
​

[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]
​

[A2] Revelation 12:17 = Woman, her Seed and Dragon​

An example of another parallelism within the greater:


Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[A1] Michael – Leader

[B1] his angels – Followers
​

[A2] Dragon – Leader

[B2] his angels - Followers​

Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon”, followed with “Michael”:

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17

“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15

“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12

“Satan” - Revelation 12:9

“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10

“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9
​

Compare also:

“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8

“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9

“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10
​

[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7

“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11

“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5

“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13

“seed” - Revelation 12:17

“it” - Revelation 12:4

“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17

“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17

“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7
​

Compare also:

“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5

“rule all” - Revelation 12:5​

After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited,?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations,?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Revelation 12:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6?

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9?

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10?

Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11?
​

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13?
​

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14?
​

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17?
​

Revelation 12

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited,?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9, who the Dragon warred against there?

 

No, you believe Roman Catholicisms' doctrine on this. and they rejoice over it, even as in this thread they agree with you.
[08] The Great Controversy; Michael vs Dragon

The War In Heaven:

The Good:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7​

The Bad:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:7​

The War continued in the Garden of Eden on Earth:

The Good:

“blood of the lamb” - Revelation 12:11

“lamb slain from the foundation of the world” - Revelation 13:8 [see also Genesis 3:21, 4:4]​

The Bad:

“that old serpent” - Revelation 12:9 [see also Genesis 3:1,2,4,13,14]

“the serpent” - Revelation 12:14

“the serpent” - Revelation 12:15

“that old serpent” - Revelation 20:2​

The War continued in the Earth:

The Good:

“brought forth the man [child]” - Revelation 12:13​

The Bad:

“cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9

“the devil is come down” - Revelation 12:12​

The War continued in the Wilderness Temptations and Ministry:

The Good:

“his Christ” - Revelation 12:10

“Jesus Christ” - Revelation 12:17​

The Bad:

“called the Devil” - Revelation 12:9 [see Luke 4:2 - “Being forty days tempted of the devil ...”]

“Satan” - Revelation 12:9​

The War continued at the Cross of Calvary:

The Good:

“the power of his Christ” - Revelation 12:10​

The Bad:

“the accuser of our brethren is cast down” - Revelation 12:10​

The War continued from the Cross even until this present day:

The Good:

“remnant of her seed” - Revelation 12:17 [see also “the seed”, Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Acts 9:4-5, 22:7-8, 26:14-15]​

The Bad:

“the dragon was wroth” - Revelation 12:17

“face of the serpent” - Revelation 12:14

“the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood” - Revelation 12:15​

The War, Who Is Like Unto These?:

The Good:

“Who is like unto God?” [Michael] - Exodus 15:11; Job 36:22; Psalms 35:10, 71:19, 89:8, 113:5; Micah 7:18 [see also the answer in Deuteronomy 33:26; 1 Kings 8:23; 2 Chronicles 6:14; Psalms 86:8; Jeremiah 10:6,7​

The Bad:

“Who is like unto the Beast?” - Revelation 13:4 [see also Genesis 3:1 - “... the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field ...”]

“Dragon” - takes the place of the Father

[1st] “beast” [of the Sea, Revelation 13] - takes the place of the Son [Greek: Anti-Christos] [Latin: Vicarius Christi]

[2nd] “beast” [of the Earth, Revelation 13] – takes the place of the Holy Spirit, as the false prophet​

The War, Those of the whole world who will wonder After:

The Good:

“behold, the world is gone after him.” - John 12:19​

The Bad:

“all the world wondered after the beast” - Revelation 13:3

“of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at this steps.” - Daniel 11:43​

The War, the Warriors of the Great Controversy:

The Good:

“The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.” - Exodus 15:3

“The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.” - Isaiah 42:13

“Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?” - Luke 14:31

“These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.” - Revelation 17:14

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” - Revelation 19:11​

The Bad:

“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?” - Revelation 13:4

“These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.” - Revelation 17:14

“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.” - Revelation 19:19​

The War continues unto the end with the same combatants as at the beginning, Michael vs Dragon:

Revelation 19:11 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:19 - And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

Read the Great Controversy Book - http://www.connectingwithjesus.org/media/GC.pdf

 

Please notice the parallels between these accounts:

[01]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... Michael, one of the chief princes ...”

Zechariah 3:1-6 KJB - “... The Angel of the LORD ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... Michael the archangel ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... Michael and his angels ...”​

[02]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood [me, Gabriel a lesser arch-angel, but then Michael/Jesus arrives to “help” Gabriel withstand and overcome the arguments of the devil] ...”

Zechariah 3:1 KJB - “... Satan standing at his right hand to resist him ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... the devil disputed ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels ...”​

[03]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... came to help me [Gabriel, the lesser arch-angel] ...”

Zechariah 3:1-9 KJB - “… Joshua ...”, the high priest, servant of the LORD

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... Moses ...”, the prophet, servant of the LORD

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... and his angels [like Gabriel, the lesser arch-angel, Seraphim, Cherubim, etc.] ...”​

[04]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - [there is no direct parallel in this passage to the other two, but the absence thereof would parallel in chiastic nature that of Revelation 12:7 KJB]

Zechariah 3:2 KJB - [The LORD Himself said:] “... The LORD rebuke thee ...”, “... even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - [Michael the archangel said:] “... said, The Lord rebuke thee ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - [there is no direct parallel in this passage to the other two, but the absence thereof would parallel in chiastic nature that of Daniel 10:13 KJB]​

Please notice that in Zechariah 3 KJB, that the “Angel of the LORD”, whom is also stated as “the LORD” [being Jesus] who was speaking, says to Satan, “... the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?”

In comparing the two, Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3 KJB, we see the servants of God, Moses and Joshua the priest, are being accused to God, by Satan, because of their sin. For instance, Joshua the high priest is clothed in “filthy garments” [Zechariah 3:3,4], and clothing in scripture, represents the character.

 

All the evidence in the world will not convince you (though provided to you in this very thread), since it is not a matter of the intellect, but the heart (spirit).

 

Naturally, the seven-day-adlibbers will try to defend their sweetie. and naturally, they're all wrong, as White's own writings prove. HER OWN STUFF is a smoking gun in her hand. There can be no more-empirical evidence of her apostasy and outright goofs. You can defend her all ya want, but you'll be just-as-wrong.

Remember, I quoted directly from her own stuff in several places !

 

Now, while Michael has great power & authority, he did not pronounce judgment on Satan. If he were Jesus, he coulda done that. The very Scriptures you cited prove that Michael is NOT Jesus.


Michael is not Jesus, simple as THAT ! Some day, you seven-day-adlibbers & other cultists will be held accountable for that blasohemy if you don'e repent of it & ask Jesus to forgive you.

And there's no such thing as a "KJB" unless it's "Ken's Jolly Bar". if you're referring to a Bible version, it's "KJV". Its makers dubbed it the "AV".(Authorized VERSION). I don't use it much anyway; it's outta date.

 

Correct! No amounta so-called "evidence", which is as wrong as the original premise, will convince me that a packa lies is the truth !

 

Jesus is not "one of the chief princes"; He is THE Chief Prince, answering only to His Father, Yahweh, who has given Him authority over everyone else in heaven or earth. The idea that Michael is Jesus is more-than-absurd.

This ignorant idea is held by members of two large cults, the Jabroney false Witlesses & the Seven-Day- Adlibbers. But anyone else who believes it is just-as-wrong.

 

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was preincarnate Christ, not an archangel michael!

 

Right now, is the resurrected Christ still Jesus, or back to Michael then?

 

The BB used to discourage/prohibit the cut & paste posting we see by Alofa Atu (who you banned a while back and he came back using a new screen name) which amounts to (IMHO) spam. 'Protestant' uses the same tactics but also refuses to engage in debate. Please consider enforcing your guidelines/rules again.