Was the Sun, Moon, and Stars actually created on the fourth day of Creation...

[Armchair Apologist]

Imagine a pile of bricks that eventually becomes a two-story colonial house and the wall around the estate, and the walks and patios in the gardens.

Now imagine the builder indicating that pile and saying, The kitchen's right there, I just haven't put it together yet. In that sense, kitchen was without form and void, but it was there. The whole estate was there, at the time it was just a pile of bricks. The Deep was the pile of bricks from which God formed the earth and the heavens.

Just to be clear, I don't mean the earth was a ball of rocks and dirt in the Deep, I mean that the earth was part of the water of the Deep, and that God formed the earth, and everything else in the universe, from the waters of the Deep. The earth and all the elements were made out of water...it's elements rearranged and combined...fused...into all the elements that we have discovered and classified in chemistry class.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...

Boom. The Deep is there. Then the process begins.

This is a simple picture of what is described in Genesis 1, accepting Moses's statement that the heavens and the earth, and all they contain, were made in six days.

View attachment 14272

I might just have to borrow this illustration for our Wednesday Bible Hour! Last week we had a great discussion arguing over the "Light" and whether we could make the case for an actual 24-hour day. We got through verse 8 which would place us in the middle part of this illustration.

Of course this illustration seems to suggest "Geo-Centrism" which may make for another interesting argument here! Could God create the sun on the fourth day and, at this time, set the earth in orbit around the sun and the sun in orbit around the Milky Way Galaxy while also keeping "Planet Earth" in the center of this universe as shown in the illustration on the right?

 

[Ben1445]

I might just have to borrow this illustration for our Wednesday Bible Hour! Last week we had a great discussion arguing over the "Light" and whether we could make the case for an actual 24-hour day. We got through verse 8 which would place us in the middle part of this illustration.

Of course this illustration seems to suggest "Geo-Centrism" which may make for another interesting argument here! Could God create the sun on the fourth day and, at this time, set the earth in orbit around the sun and the sun in orbit around the Milky Way Galaxy while also keeping "Planet Earth" in the center of this universe as shown in the illustration on the right?

It doesn’t really matter whether you are geocentric or heliocentric. The only thing we are sure of is that there is movement between objects and that there is change between the placement of objects relative to each other.

I personally am Theocentric by persuasion.

 

[Aaron]

But not left over fossils from a previous creation gone sour, ruled by Satan.

When I read without form and void, it means that there is nothing there except the basic elements.
I could agree better with your illustration if you could say that there was only the material to make the bricks in their most basic molecular form. And yes I meant molecular not atomic. Water is molecular.
But all this is in response to people who believe that satans dominion of the earth was destroyed and covered with water which is supposed to explain fossils, Atlantis, and anything else that is not expressly given to us in Scripture.

I think you're arguing against the gap theory, but now it's not clear to me.

Oooh...okay. I reread your deal on 2 Peter. I still think you're arguing against the gap theory, which is good, I think you're mistaken in your identification of the willingly ignorant. They are those in the last days who scoff at the promise of Christ's coming, and assert a sort of cosmological uniformitarianism...that the processes observed today have been the same from the moment of Creation until now. They'll say things like, "The speed of light tells us that the stars had to pre-exist day 4 of Creation."

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. - 2 Peter 3:5-6 ESV

Noah's flood explains the fossil record.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I personally am Theocentric by persuasion.

Me too!

 

[Aaron]

I might just have to borrow this illustration for our Wednesday Bible Hour! Last week we had a great discussion arguing over the "Light" and whether we could make the case for an actual 24-hour day. We got through verse 8 which would place us in the middle part of this illustration.

Of course this illustration seems to suggest "Geo-Centrism" which may make for another interesting argument here! Could God create the sun on the fourth day and, at this time, set the earth in orbit around the sun and the sun in orbit around the Milky Way Galaxy while also keeping "Planet Earth" in the center of this universe as shown in the illustration on the right?

Feel free. A symetrical expansion in the midst waters would seem leave the seas and the dry land that appeared under it in the center or very near it as well. I guess it could have been an asymetrical expansion, but then the physicists would have had no need to explain their observations with a Big Bang. My point in making that illustration was to better explain how a straightforward reading of Genesis excludes the water canopy theory and the idea of a reconstruction of the earth after some kind of cosmic devastation. The scale of the expanse mind-blowing, however, and obviously nothing I could come close to representing. The earth could be offset a few lightyears and still be considered to inhabit the center.

The Big-Bang-rejecting astrophysicists I've come across describe themselves as being Galactocentric. But geocentricity today doesn't mean what it did to Ptolemy or Aristotle. A geocentrist today doesn't believe the earth is the center of the solar system. Geocentricity means that the earth is in the center of mass of a rotating universe, and by virtue of such location is motionless. The planets of the solar system orbit the sun, and the sun is carried around the earth by the gravity of all the other stars and systems in revolution around the earth.

A perfectly legit model scientifically, I'm told.

 

[percho]

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:4,6
Eph 6:11,12 put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

Why did the God, separate the light that good, from the darkness as twelve hours of light = day and twelve hours of night = darkness? John 11:9
I wonder if this is relative to three days and three nights in the heart of the earth????????
I also wonder if the lights of day four are relative to the resurrection taking place at the end of about four thousand years???????

When did the god of this age become the god of the darkness of this age?

I believe on this earth before Genesis 1:2 I believe it is the purpose of Gen 1:2 ending with the creation of Adam the figure of him to come for the purpose of 2 Cor 4 above.

Multi ?s is asking the thoughts of you all.

 

[percho]

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Does anyone think the above describes, "the earth," as standing in the water and out of the water?

 

[Aaron]

Does anyone think the above describes, "the earth," as standing in the water and out of the water?

Not me. I think the gathering of the waters that were under the firmament letting the dry land appear describes the earth, as standing in the water and out of the water.

 

[Aaron]

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:4,6
Eph 6:11,12 put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

Why did the God, separate the light that good, from the darkness as twelve hours of light = day and twelve hours of night = darkness? John 11:9
I wonder if this is relative to three days and three nights in the heart of the earth????????
I also wonder if the lights of day four are relative to the resurrection taking place at the end of about four thousand years???????

When did the god of this age become the god of the darkness of this age?

I believe on this earth before Genesis 1:2 I believe it is the purpose of Gen 1:2 ending with the creation of Adam the figure of him to come for the purpose of 2 Cor 4 above.

Multi ?s is asking the thoughts of you all.

I think All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - Jhn 1:3

And all things happened for the Son to fulfill His eternal destiny as High Priest.

There is very little that we can know for certain about the world of angels. The things we're told concern the world of men. No, Genesis is not about the creation of angels or their world, or even their fall.

That cryptic blurb about angels leaving their first estate may have to do with Genesis 6 and the Nephilim, but the last of the Nephilim were destroyed with the Amalekites.

Those angels are held in chains, in prison. That is the binding of Satan.

A day is coming, though, when those chains will be loosed and the man of sin revealed to deceive the nations again with signs and lying wonders like those witnessed by the ancients.

 

[robycop3]

2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

And for some context from the writer,


2 Peter 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Scripture speaks of willful ignorance of the world before Noah’s flood. It is not talking about some pre-Adam civilization.

The world was without form and void. That means that there was nothing left over from your earlier civilization that had any form left to it and it was empty of anything that could be thought of as left over from another civilization.

I never said there was a pre-Adamic civilization. but the evidence is plain that there was a barren earth, a dinosaur age, ice ages, etc. Woolly mammoths, saber-tooth cats, etc. existed. God had re-arranged the world when He ended the dinosaur age and the other ages before and after. Those who deny this remind me of Hermann Goering during WW2. He had declared, "The British will never bomb this place."(Germany) But when he was shown the unmistakable remains of a British bomber shot down over Germany, (Its crew had bailed out) he decreed,"There was no British bomber & no British bomb(s) fell on Germany !"

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I never said there was a pre-Adamic civilization. but the evidence is plain that there was a barren earth, a dinosaur age, ice ages, etc. Woolly mammoths, saber-tooth cats, etc. existed. God had re-arranged the world when He ended the dinosaur age and the other ages before and after. Those who deny this remind me of Hermann Goering during WW2. He had declared, "The British will never bomb this place."(Germany) But when he was shown the unmistakable remains of a British bomber shot down over Germany, (Its crew had bailed out) he decreed,"There was no British bomber & no British bomb(s) fell on Germany !"

Can we not explain this with the account of Noah's worldwide flood? Prior to the flood, men were living 900+ years and reptillian creatures lived long enough to become very big. We also understand that the meterological conditions were quite different with scientists attesting that the entire earth was subtropical at one time. All of this was radically changed as is stated in Genesis and is seen through scientific inquiry.

I can appreciate "Gap Theorists" trying to rationalize possible scenarios such as the fall of Lucifer and his angels but we do not need the gap theory in order to explain dinosaurs.