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We Need God in America Again

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jailminister, Aug 26, 2003.

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  1. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    #1 Jailminister, Aug 26, 2003
  2. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    No, we need evangelism that seeks to convert the lost.

    Note that Paul, John, Peter, Christ, etc., never tried to change government. In fact, they exhort us to submit to government (even the evil ones - of which they all lived in).

    America is not nearly as pagan as Rome but Paul is silent in the political realm.

    Part of the great commission is not to reform the government.

    I am an ambassador and a pilgrim. This world is not my home.
     
    #2 Gunther, Aug 26, 2003
  3. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Are you saying that we should not have ever rebelled agianst King George?
     
    #3 Jailminister, Aug 26, 2003
  4. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    but consider this, according to our government we by law have a right to petition and vote and legally boycott and assemble to voice out our concern for a Godly ran government. this can be done without any harm and unlawful interference to our system.
    dont you want to get involved?
     
    #4 massdak, Aug 26, 2003
  5. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    Why is this the opt out for those who refuse to deal with what I actually did say?

    I have said numerous times that I would have picked my rifle and fought.

    It does no violence to my position though abou the CHURCH trying to control the government. I am equally opposed to the idea of the GOVERNMENT trying to control the church.

    Try dealing with what I did say and stop trying to bring smoke into the discussion to sidestep the issue.
     
    #5 Gunther, Aug 26, 2003
  6. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    1. There is a difference in having a responsibility as a citizen of a given country to seek justice, truth, honor, freedom, etc. and trying to make it seem like the job of the church to control the government.

    The government will be wrong, evil, corrupt, etc. The kingdom of Christ keeps advancing though. Kingdoms of men fade, Christ's doesn't.

    2. If I ever knew of a guy raping a woman, you better believe I will but the beat down on the guy.

    My involvement with politics does not dictate how I read the Bible (as it does with Jailminister and others).

    I am 100% against gun control. That is a political position that I have. Countries and area that have it are in a mess crimewise. However, it is not of such importance to me that I would even bring it up to someone else, lest they reject a hearing of the gospel because of some stupid political position.
     
    #6 Gunther, Aug 26, 2003
  7. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    1. There is a difference in having a responsibility as a citizen of a given country to seek justice, truth, honor, freedom, etc. and trying to make it seem like the job of the church to control the government.

    The government will be wrong, evil, corrupt, etc. The kingdom of Christ keeps advancing though. Kingdoms of men fade, Christ's doesn't.

    2. If I ever knew of a guy raping a woman, you better believe I will but the beat down on the guy.

    My involvement with politics does not dictate how I read the Bible (as it does with Jailminister and others).

    I am 100% against gun control. That is a political position that I have. Countries and area that have it are in a mess crimewise. However, it is not of such importance to me that I would even bring it up to someone else, lest they reject a hearing of the gospel because of some stupid political position.     </font>[/QUOTE]i think you better give that some more thought.
    having a strong position on gun control would never hamper the gospel message once given. if God has given the person ears to hear it they will recieve it.
     
    #7 massdak, Aug 27, 2003
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    This world is not my home
    I'm just a passing through
    My treasures are laid up
    Somewhere beyond the blue!

    The angels beacon me from
    Heaven's open door
    And I can't feel at home
    In this world anymore!

    This Massdak/Gunther debate
    reminds me of myself (Massdak)
    arguing with my Pastor (Gunther).
    That pastor of mine even things that
    the US Government has the DUTY to
    provide food/housing/etc for poor folk.
    [​IMG]
     
    #8 Ed Edwards, Aug 27, 2003
  9. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    How I read my Bible dictates to me my involvement with politics. [​IMG]

    We need America to turn back to God! [​IMG]
     
    #9 I Am Blessed 24, Aug 27, 2003
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Sister I am Blessed 16 -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    I have a "T" that says
    GOD BLESS AMERICA. I aught to
    rearrange the words so that it says:
    AMERICA BLESS GOD. [​IMG]
     
    #10 Ed Edwards, Aug 27, 2003
  11. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    God is still here and working mightily in the hearts and lives of His people.

    Maybe you aren't listening to His voice because you are too focused on an idol made of granite?
     
    #11 Baptist Believer, Aug 27, 2003
  12. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Gunther said:
    Gunther You view point is confusing. You say you must obey the civil authorities, but at the same time you would have taken up a rifle in the American Revolution. This does not make sense. I agree that the government has no business dictating the church(even though they are doing it today), but the church should have and has had influence in this country.

    Baptist Believer, I have not made an idol out of the stone tablets, nor has most of the protestors. What we are saying is take a look at the agenda of those who want it out. Is that who you want to side with.
     
    #12 Jailminister, Aug 27, 2003
  13. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    1. Apparently not. It is amazing that in a completely pagan and corrupt civilization, the N.T. is SILENT on political activism.

    2. Agreed. That is only done through conversion though.
     
    #13 Gunther, Aug 27, 2003
  14. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    Jailminister, you don't want the church to have influence. It has that. You want it to dictate and/or take over and push Christianity through the means of the government.

    Also, this is not a thread on the revolution. If you want to discuss that, start a new thread. I have already stated in a different thread like this why I would have fought for the colonies.
     
    #14 Gunther, Aug 27, 2003
  15. Brett

    Brett New Member

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    Just to comment on a side issue, I don't think stronger gun control has either a correlative or causal relationship with higher crime. Canada has stronger gun control than the U.S., and I don't think I need to tell you which country has the higher incidence of violent crime.
     
    #15 Brett, Aug 27, 2003
  16. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Gunther said:
    Gunther You are in err about what I want. I am not promoting dictating. I am for recognition of God in our society. Not promoting denominations.
     
    #16 Jailminister, Aug 27, 2003
  17. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    The USA has never been a Christian nation.

    Carman's America Again is distorted history.

    The lyrics state,
    To be honest with you I have never heard the Founding Fathers cite 27 biblical violations to rebell against Britain. It could be argued that the Colonies were in rebellion against Scripture. I don't think the Founding Fathers sought our independence because of the Bible.

    The same man who cut out scriptures he didn't like.

    I think that has been shown to be a false quote.


    False premise and do voices really occur in Carman's head. [​IMG]

    Actually some like Jefferson did subvert the Word of God. Don't get me wrong I love Jefferson and all the Founding Fathers but don't turn them all into Evangelical Christians. The Religious right makes the opposite mistake of the ACLU and the so called "Americans For the Sepration of Church and State" do with them seeking to remove the 10 commandments.

    The Religious Right - Theocratic Government

    The Religious Secularists - No Mention of God period by the government.

    Both are wrong and either can lead to Tyranny.


    Carman's entire lyrics are at http://josh-www.tripod.com/american_again.htm
     
    #17 Kiffin, Aug 27, 2003
  18. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Kiffin, Here are the 27 Biblically base grievances.
    Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.


    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.


    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.


    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.


    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.


    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.


    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.


    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws of Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.


    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.


    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.


    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their substance.


    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.


    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.


    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:


    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:


    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:


    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:


    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:


    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:


    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:


    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:


    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:


    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.


    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.


    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the Lives of our people.


    He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.


    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.


    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
     
    #18 Jailminister, Aug 27, 2003
  19. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    To be honest with you Jailminister, I think those reasons were mere propaganda. Colonies were under the control of the Crown and did not have the same rights. Great Britain nor King George were tyrants. England saved North America from being dominated by the French years earlier. I believe it was God's will for the Revolution to happen but I would not use scripture to validate it when you compare it with Romans 13. God bless
     
    #19 Kiffin, Aug 27, 2003
  20. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Kiffin said:
    Maybe we should apologize to King George.

    I don't think so.
     
    #20 Jailminister, Aug 29, 2003
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