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Were Adam and Eve mortal before the fall?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Nov 10, 2006.

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  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. [Gen 3:22-23 NIV]

    This sounds as if they weren't immortal since they had not eaten from the tree of life yet. :eek:
    But if they did not have eternal life before the fall then they would have died one day even without the fall. :confused:
    Or how does this work? There was the tree of knowledge and the tree of life.
    If they had not yet eaten from the tree of life in order to live forever then this actually means that they didn't have eternal life even before the fall. But I thought that before the fall they were immortal. :confused:
     
    #1 xdisciplex, Nov 10, 2006
  2. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    First, as I've said before, there's no real reason to think that the creation accounts in Genesis 1-3 are historically accurate, or were ever meant to be. The Bible is a theological work, not a science or history textbook.

    It is a conundrum in any case; the account associates death with sin, and we await the day when death will be no more. Yet apparently the "tree of life" was neccessary to live forever...

    Yeah, I agree xdx. Confusing.
     
    #2 tragic_pizza, Nov 10, 2006
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    To make such a statement as 'there's no real reason to think that the creation accounts in Genesis 1-3 are historically accurate', is doubting God's Word.

    The Word of God tells us in John 17:17 'Sanctify them through Thy Word, Thy Word is Truth'. If God's Word is Truth, then Genesis chapters 1-3 are true. As a matter of fact, from Genesis to Revelation, all is true.
     
    #3 standingfirminChrist, Nov 10, 2006
  4. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Something can be theologically true without having to be historically or scientifically accurate.

    I would argue that it is true, for example that God ceated the heavens and the earth, that Christ was present at and active in the creation, as was the Holy Spirit. This is the clear teaching of Genesis 1-3.

    If, however, I insist that the accounts must be scientifically and historically accurate as well as true, then I have some difficulties to overcome, such as: which creation account is true? The account in Genesis 1 or the one in Genesis 2? How was light created before the sun, moon and stars? Who did the sons of Adam and Eve marry? and so on.

    I resent being told that I doubt God's word simply because I understand the difference between a theological work and one of science or history.
     
    #4 tragic_pizza, Nov 10, 2006
  5. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    The Holy Bible, the Word of God is not just a Theological book, but also a book of History. That being said, I stand by my earlier quote. God's Word is truth. The account of creation in Genesis 1 - 3 is both Theologically correct and Historically correct.
     
    #5 standingfirminChrist, Nov 10, 2006
  6. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    When God says there was light on the first day, there was light on the first day. When God said He created the Sun, Moon and Stars on the fourth day, I have no doubt that He did just that at the time He said.
     
    #6 standingfirminChrist, Nov 10, 2006
  7. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    @ Pizza

    These are all basic questions. Go here for answers:

    http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm

    http://www.gotquestions.org/

    Jesus took the creation account seriously. He didn't think it's just "theological".
    And by the way if genesis 1-3 never happened then we have even more open questions. Then what about the fall of man? What about sin? When you don't believe in the foundation everything becomes unstable.

    Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
    Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

    1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
     
    #7 xdisciplex, Nov 10, 2006
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True enough - they were not immortal - they 'needed access" to the tree of life.

    Not true. They just needed access to the tree of life.

    "Immortal soul" - look that up in the Bible and you will have your answer.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2006
  9. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    So you mean there was this tree of life and they had to eat from this tree every now and then because otherwise they would die? :eek:
    Why did God not make them immortal? Where is the sense of this? Imagine they planned on going somewhere else then they would have died because the tree was in the garden.
     
    #9 xdisciplex, Nov 10, 2006
  10. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    God said, 'Lest they eat from the tree and live forever. Eating from the tree would be a one time event. They had not eaten that one time.
     
    #10 standingfirminChrist, Nov 10, 2006
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When I get hungry - I eat. I never respond with "God is being unfair to me".

    Neither do I argue "HEY I have to keep eating to stay alive! That really stinks! I just ate last week and now I have to eat "again" or die! What a rotten deal".

    I also never imagine that "God can only make one tree of life - and it has to be right here. He is not allowed any more in all of the universe".

    My point is that your "Concern" is based on a lot of things that are never seen in real life as "complaints".

    Why go down that road?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2006
  12. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    But was it even a real tree? I mean does the tree of life not stand for Jesus?

    And I also have the impression that they have never eaten from the tree, just like standingfirminChrist.

    The bible does not say:

    Lest they eat from the tree forever and live forever.

    Living forever would have meant needing to eat from the tree forever, too.

    Then there would have been no need to hurry at all. Even if they had eaten from it again it wouldn't have made a difference because God could still simply have stopped it one day.

    Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


    But on the other hand there was only 1 forbidden tree, the tree of knowledge. This means all other trees were allowed, also the tree of life. Why does everything have to be so complicated?
     
    #12 xdisciplex, Nov 10, 2006
  13. dispen4ever

    dispen4ever New Member

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    I'm happy to see you in a reasonable discussion, xdx. And I REALLY like that "I love you" at the end. Super! :thumbs:
     
    #13 dispen4ever, Nov 10, 2006
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "making stuff up" is not a good substitute for God's Word no matter how "nice" it sounds. Christ predicted that those who would slay his followers would "think they are doing God a service".

    Many "make stuff up" about Gen 1- 8 along the model of "this is not really true - make somthing up that sounds nice INSTEAD of believing what the text says you will be better off".

    That was what Satan was trying to say in Gen 3 -- he was pressing the point that "what God said was not what He meant".

    "Did God really SAY not to eat of any tree"??

    I don't know if they did or did not since the Bible does not say.

    But I am ready to "make stuff up" about what it does not say...

    I think they probably DID eat of the Tree of Life - but in their sinless physical forms - this only perpetuated their sinless life. IF after being transformed to their fallen SINFUL state - they had then eaten of the tree of life - and had kept having access to it - then they would have been sustained as God stated.

    I.E. It is all "literally true".

    OR you could assume God was right - and His word is true -- literally true.

    In that model God is telling the truth when HE says that continued access to the tree means eternal life for the wicked sinner.

    HE may also be referencing a "not good outcome" for what would have resulted from even ONE time of having access to the tree of life after their natures were changed to sinful fallen natures.

    We will know when we get to heaven.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2006
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Think about it for a second xd -- what was Satan's ploy?

    Did he come to Eve as "the devil asking her to volunteer for hell"??

    Was it not in the form of a lower life form - a snake - who "suddenly got the gift of speech" by doing the very thing that God said would "kill you"?

    This was "proof" a fact that she could not deny - that "God was wrong" and then Satan provides a "motive" for God not wanting to tell Eve the truth about this "Wonder food" that would do for Eve what it had already been PROVEN to do for the snake.

    Think about his argument - and what if you had been standing there instead of Eve - what would you have been thinking?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2006
  16. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    This will answer two questions which struck me as odd in this discussion. And all I did was search the phrase "tree of life".

    First. If God SAID there was light before He created the sun, moon, and stars, then that is what happened.

    Second. They did not CHOOSE the tree of life BEFORE they chose the tree of the knowledge of good and of evil.

    This passage answers both questions.

    1. God is light and will be all the light necessary in time to come. Hence, when God said let there be light and it was so, that is just what He meant. It is historically, theologically annd scientifically and literally accurate just the way it is written in the Genesis creation account.

    2. The tree of life is for the healing of the nations. And for giving life to God's people. Adam needed no healing before the fall and he was "very good" in the day he was created, therefore he needed no redemption, YET. Also, notice the LEAVES heal. The FRUIT gives life.

    Here is the passage I get all that from.

    Re 22:1
    ΒΆ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    Re 22:2
    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Re 22:3
    And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    Re 22:4
    And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    Re 22:5
    And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
     
    #16 av1611jim, Nov 10, 2006
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Those are certainly good ideas. But the Bible does not give us an exhaustive account of the 1600 years before the flood or of every minute Adam and Eve spent in the garden prior to their fall.

    I don't know all of what they did or did not eat during those days, weeks, years - except that I know that when the day came that they did finally eat of the forbidden tree - they were cast out of the Garden and I know that AFTER eating of the forbidden tree they did not "then eat" of the tree of life for reasons that God stated regarding fallen mankind and the tree of life.

    Also - as for the stars - on day 4 God creates "exactly two great lights" not a zillion. So while it is true that He is also the creator of the stars - I do not see the text insisting that all the stars were created on day 4.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Nov 11, 2006
  18. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    I don't know if Satan really appeared as a snake. At least it would have been a snake with arms and legs because after this God cursed the snake and said that it has to crawl on its belly. This means that before this happened the snake had arms and legs or maybe only legs.
    I have read something from Michael Heiser, a scholar in semitic languages, he thinks that Satan wasn't a snake but rather a serpentine creature. And after all the bible tells us that the snake was more subtle so I don't think it was regarded as lower by Eve.

    Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    What exactly does this here imply? Does it imply that God did not make the serpent or does it imply that the serpent is the most subtle creature of all creatures which God made? But why should God create the serpent when it's evil?
    Or did God create the serpent and then Satan entered it?

    In this verse here (Lest they eat from the tree and live forever.) nothing at all which indicates that they already had continued access to the tree.

    Somehow I also find the idea pretty strange that Adam and Eve had to eat from the tree every once in a while in order to stay healthy. This would imply that even before the fall there was something like diseases or at least decay. This would mean that God wasn't even able to create something which lasts. This makes no sense in my opinion. Then all the animals would have been forced to also eat from the tree otherwise they would have died sooner or later. Can you imagine all animals which lived on the earth going to the tree? Must have been a long line. :laugh:


    @ dispen4ever
    thanks
     
    #18 xdisciplex, Nov 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2006
  19. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    duh. Be fruitful and multiply.
     
    #19 SaggyWoman, Nov 11, 2006
  20. dispen4ever

    dispen4ever New Member

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    Suffice it to say that Jesus is the light of the world. It was HE who illuminated the darkness before the creation of the sun, moon, stars. He continues to illuminate the darkness today for those who have received Him as Savior, even more so for those who follow Him as Lord. Rejoice, rejoice O Christian, lift up your voices and sing, eternal hallelujahs to Jesus Christ our King!
     
    #20 dispen4ever, Nov 11, 2006
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