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Were Jews Born or Made?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 1689Dave, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If you study the history of the Jews in the bible, any not circumcised were cut off from the tribe. Originally the tribe amounted to Abraham's 300+ servants and Ishmael, his only blood relative.

    Jacob inherited all of these through Isaac, plus acquired more while serving his uncle Laban.

    The number of Hebrews, also called Israel in Egypt needed the entire land of Goshen to live in.

    They came out 400+ years later a mixed multitude and continued that way, and were considered Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision.

    In Esther's day many became Jews after the Jews slaughtered thousands of Haman's followers.

    ““When a foreigner lives with you and wants to observe the Passover to the LORD, all his males must be circumcised, and then he may approach and observe it, and he will be like one who is born in the land—but no uncircumcised person may eat of it.” (Exodus 12:48)

    “The same law will apply to the person who is native-born and to the foreigner who lives among you.”” (Exodus 12:49)

    “And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14) This would nullify the status of one born in the land.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The "Jews" (Yahudai) are descendants from the line of Shem

    Genesis 3
    18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
    19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
     
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    So is most of the middle east. But any born of Isaac was given the boot to gentile status if not circumcised.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No they are "Semites" (descendants of Shem) "Anusim"(uncircumcised shemites) not "Goyim" (descendants of Ham and Japheth).
     
    #4 HankD, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    This is correct. But look at all the nations that came from Abraham.

    By far the majority of Abraham’s descendants were not Israelites. Ishmael himself was in the covenant until expelled, but he had at that time no child. Later proceeded from him:

    “Nebaioth and Kedar and Abdeel and Mibsam and Mishnah, and Duma and Massa, Hadad and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah — all these are the sons if Ishmael. (Gen. 25:13)

    The sons of Keturah also were numerous: They were “Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah.” (Gen. 25:2)

    Although there were fourteen dukes, or chiefs, of Edom, (Gen. 36:15-19) let us count the Edomites as but one nation. Then we have twenty tribal groups, all of which were equally the descendants of Abraham after the flesh, but only one of which, the children of Israel, were in covenant with God and were “The Seed of Abraham” in the covenant sense. We may formulate our conclusion in the following sentence:

    “The expression ‘Seed of Abraham’, in biblical usage, denotes that visible community, the members of which stand in relation to God through the Abrahamic Covenant, and thus are heirs to the Abrahamic promise.”

    Albertus Pieters The Seed of Abraham
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You asked a question, I gave my answer Dave.

    Not sure what you are looking for - for the most part all Semitic peoples practice (or are supposed to practice) circumcision.

    Uncircumcised Jews are called the "Anusim" uncircumcised descendants of Jacob the tribal father of the Jews..
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    In the context of the seed of Abraham, it made one a Jew (member of physical Israel).
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There are two components to being a Jew just as there are two components to being a Christian.


    When one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he/she becomes a Christian.
    When one is baptized in the name of the Trinitarian God one becomes obedient to the Christian ordinance.

    When a male someone is born into a Jewish family he is a Jew (if mother is Jewish).
    When he receives circumcision he has fulfilled the "mitzvah" of "bris" and has been obedient to HaTorah.

    Dave - what do we call the millions of "Jews" who have not been circumcised - Jewish women - are they Jews?.
     
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your position on Christians. But your take on Jewishness is not biblical It is Jewish custom popular today. If any were not circumcised, they were cut off and reduced to gentile status.

    “And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

    This is important because when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he removed unbelievers from Israel (Romans 11). Leaving only believers intact.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Wrong no "jew" can be reduced to "gentile" status, that is nowhere found in the scripture.

    To be "cut off" karath as a tree - cut down and removed כָּרַת
    No were is it found as meaning to cease to be Abraham's seed but it simply means to be banished from the collective community.
     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Jew = Religion, not race. And excommunication = gentile status.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Believe what you will.
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It's a religion, not a race.

    “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:26)
     
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