Were they really saved?

Are you trying to anger me?
You are starting to really get on my nerves with your childish behavior.
Oh yeah Luke only wrote that it was like blood because it wasn't like blood. He simply thought it sounds cool. Oh yeah, you're right! And I am evil and twisting scripture. :BangHead:
Really, I'm fed up with you.
Go see yourself how many evil christians there are which twist scriptures:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t018.html

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10704111616

Look at this pastor! Look at this! He is twisting scriptures! Evil heretic!

HERETIC!!!!!!





write back when you've matured a bit and when you've stopped simply trying to cause arguments

 

When one removes that little phrase 'as it were' from that passage, the passage is changed into a new meaning other than what was handed down and inspired by God for holy men to write. Changing the Word of God to say something that it does not say is very dangerous. It is saying you doubt God's Word, so you will rewrite it to what you think God should have said.

Changing 'all murderers' to 'some murderers' is very dangerous.

Goid warned about adding to His Word.

 

Again, "faith" is misapplied to some situation besides the original meaning of salvation. Then, if he doesn't have this "other" faith he can't have faith that he is saved! I should be like the Campbellists, who use Eph.4:5 "one baptism" to prove their argument. The verse also says "one faith"! Not faith in Christ as savior, plus as protector from "too much pain".
(Again people quote Psalms 34:19,20 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones: not one of them is broken". But is this promising a Christian shall never have bones broken? No. So you all are reading these verses wrong, and giving people false "promises" to have "faith" in. A person is not lost for rejecting a false promise based on a misreading of scripture! You all are pulling verses out just like Satan did to Jesus, (with, significantly enough, a similar prophetic "promise"!)

From http://members.aol.com/etb700/abundant.html
1 Cor.10:13, and James 1:2,3. "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that all of you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that all of you may be able to bear it". "count it all joy when all of you fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience". From these two passages, it is for all purposes taught that the suffering person's pain is good for them! The way the teaching goes; is that if God is allowing this painful circumstance, He knows it is good for what He wants to make you into (His plan for your future, or just "molding you to the image of His Son"), and you can handle it. Then we get endless analogies. In such "sculpting"; "rough edges have to be knocked/chiseled off, so there must be pain". It is even taught that when you ask God for patience, He responds by "sending" hardships which supposedly "develop patience in you" —if you respond the right way!

The problem in these passages is that "Trials" and "temptations" are read as "painful circumstances". But the word translated "temptation" (peirazo/peirasmos) means just that: temptation. Even "try/trial" (dokimos) used here conveys a similar meaning. (other words; such as purosis, "fiery trial", or thilipsis, "pressure/trouble" address painful situations, but these are not used here! Strong's does say that peirasmos "by impl." means "adversity"; but this is from a projection of the common misunderstanding of the word; and not its actual definition based on how it is used in the text!) If the common interpretation of this being God "sending tests" were right, then the Bible blatantly contradicts itself; because James then says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". This is the same word used in Cor. and we see that it means what we commonly understand as "temptation to sin"; not a painful situation. Yet how many times do we see Christian teachers, counselors and books tell a suffering person "God brought this hardship into your life to test you. You can bear it no matter what it is, because He said you could, and He did it for your good". "Accept it from the hand of the Lord". If he rejects it; complains too much, etc, then he is "despising the chastening of the Lord"*. If that is what "test" (tempt) means, then they are the ones contradicting scripture and accusing God, not the sufferer who says the situation is too much for him to bear!
-----------------

Now in the case of a suicide, the "temptation" is not the pain that is causing to consider suicide, but the whole idea of suicide in the first place. Now, this temptation in itself is not too much to bear, as the scripture says, but still we all yield to temptation, none of which were "too much", yet we don't then have salvation declared null and void. The only difference with the suicide, again, is it's irreversibility.

 

James is not contradicting Paul's writings. Paul did not say God gives the temptations, but that God allows the temptations. God knows how much we can bear. Remember the story of Job? God did not allow so much that Job's life was anywhere in danger by satan. Nor did Job commit suicide.

God will not allow any more on us than we are able to bear. If a person who is a Christian commits suicide because his burden was too much, then that verse is an out and out lie. God knows how much we can bear. He would know if that person would commit suicide because he felt it was too much on him.

So, either God's Word is truth, and the Christian would never commit suicide because God would not put on him enough that he would do that, or it is a lie and God has put so much on that Christian knowing that the end result would be death for that individual.

I bet it is the former and God's Word is truth.

 

It is true that God will not allow us to be tempted us beyond what we can withstand, but by your reasoning, any Christian who succombs to a temptation is not really saved because if they were God would not have allowed them to be tempted. Just because God in His mercy allows a way out does not mean we are always going to take it. Thankfully, Christ's death on the cross was enough.

A works-based salvation must be exhausting.

 

hard to admit that if a person commits suicide then God did allow more than they could bear, huh? If they were able to bear it, they would not have committed suicide.

 

Then your argument stands for any temptation. You are saying that if someone succombs to a temptation then they are not a Christian. After all, if they could have withstood it, they would have, eh?

People commit suicide for a variety of reasons. For some, they believe they cannot bear what they are going through. Their choice does not mean they were not provided a way out, it just means they didn't take it.

Every temptation has a way out, but we do not always take it. Far too often, we refuse to see it. Does that mean we are not a Christian?

 

Here is what our study Bible has to say about 1 Corinthians 10:13...

Make a way to escape (lit., "an egress" or 'way out"):
In early Greek usage, this term had the sense of a landing place for a ship. The idea is thus not that He will enable us to escape temptation, but that He will enable us to land intact on the other side.
The King James Study Bible

 

I appreciate that, SFIC. My point is that although this is always provided, it is not always accepted. Even by Christians.

I have, in my life, been suicidal. (a long time ago) Was there always a way out? Absolutely. Did I always admit that there was? No. Like any temptation, suicide is often the more preferable choice. However, if the presence of that choice, or the making of that choice excludes one from being a Christian, then we'd have to say the same for any temptation. After all, it is temptation 1 Corinthians 10:13 is talking about.

Do Christians always flee from temptation? No. Even though there is a way out, they do not always take it.

 

A true Christian will not commit suicide. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. If they commit suicide they are not hearing His voice, nor are they following Him.

 

Any sin is the result of not following Him.

Does that mean that a true Christian will not commit sin?

 

Isaiah 41:10

• "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee;"

How has the suicide been strengthened? How has the Lord kept him?
God will not leave the true Christian in the time of despair. He has promised to strengthen and keep them.


John 14:18

• "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Isaiah 41:10

• "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."

If He will not leave them comfortless, why are they without comfort to the point of destroying their life?

Ephesians 2:10

• "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The Christian is created in Christ Jesus unto good works. If it is unto good works, it is not unto suicide. Suicide is not unto good works.

2nd Corinthians 4:16

• "For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."

The inner man is renewed day by day because the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Christian. Does Christ abandon us and fail to renew us when we need Him most? You had better believe He does not; else He lied when He said He would never leave us, nor forsake us.

A true Christian will endure trials because of the Lord dwelling within.

2nd Timothy 4:5-8

• "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
• For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
• I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
• Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

How has the suicide fought the good fight? How has he finished the course? How has he kept the faith? If he cannot endure the trials of life, and commits suicide how can it be said he has the Spirit of life?

 

Someone needs to explain to me how giving up on life and committing suicide is keeping the faith?

Someone needs to explain how one who defiles the body by suicide is not destroyed of the Lord for doing so?

 

Why can't you answer my question?

 

That goes for any sin, not suicide only. "True" Christians commit all types of sin form telling a lie to lusting, to stealing, to omission, and even suicide. What your teaching boils down to a works salvation.

 

I wondered how Christians who believe in this "Perservering to the end" thing, and who believe that God causes you to do that, could also believe that you could commit suicide as the last act of your life and still go to heaven.

Because I thought that they also think that if you did something like that then that means "they went out from us because they were never one of us". Or they were not one of the "Elect" to begin with. So then how can they be saved?

To me it seems like alot of people on this Board believe in that kind of theology....that God automatically causes you to perservere to the end... "run the race" to the end.

So I dont see how they can reconcile this entire suicide thing with that.

Unless I am misunderstanding something somewhere.

Also what about the idea of repentence? So you all dont believe you have to repent of your sins? Because suicide is a final act you cant repent of.

And so you dont really believe that God will keep you to the end and make you persevere and you also dont believe that you need to repent?

And so what you are saying is that when David murdered that if he hadnt of repented he would've been saved anyway?

Claudia

 

SFIC confuses the final nature of suicide (if you're successful, you don't get another chance) with final judgement (God sends you to hell). He unevenly applies the Revelation passage, then ignores it when it is pointed out.

By the way, His Blood Spoke My Name: You have ignored this question five times. Obviously you have NO answer to it. But here's take number six for HBSMN:

If you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

 

I THINK SO... if you are busy thinking selfishly of yourself and its "your time to go" then your soul will be lost... as was this mans and you yourself are deciding that it is "your time to go" ....


Luke 12:
15: And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19: And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20: But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?