What about the nature of version selections

Ken,

Your's is a powerful testimony. And I do certainly appreciate your demeanor in debate. You're right that the Gospel is easily understood by even the most simple minds! And your option #1 is at least self-consistent - in the claim that the KJB was sent by God and is profitable for study.

My objection to your overall stance is you (and Michelle) seem to insist that many non-EXPLICIT passages of scripture be interpeted only your way. Like the example of satan/Lucifer. There is no EXPLICIT passage in the bible saying Lucifer IS satan - but yet Michelle will insist that there is no other interpretation, even though a number of facts point otherwise. I am no liberal (at least by typical definition) but I still maintain that we can learn more about the bible by science. You say science vs pseudoscience - how do you differentiate? Is anything that comes up with a non KJBO, non IFB viewpoint pseudoscience? I would say no.

Why is this important to me? I see so many Christians who see our faith as a long list of rules - no skirts on women, no movies, no Passion of the Christ etc. The bible can only be interpreted strictly literally, AND only in accordance with very traditional fundamentalist views. Where is the Gospel in all of this? Now I'm not accusing you of this - you are NOT this - but many are.

We should stand firm for the fundamentals of the faith - the kerygma. Virgin birth, Resurrection, eternal life. Witout these we have no Christianity! But the things that are NOT EXPLICIT should not be elevated to such importance that believers fight over them. Debate yes but fight no!

Like the whole KJBO argument. I UNDERSTAND your points there. I think they are somewhat valid. I do NOT see that they are PROOF - and as such I cannot accept your opinions as dogma, even though I will respect them. This is the point on which Michelle and I differ.

 

Innuendo that I did not “really” read you post. I did read your post I have read your post again and I repeat Yes, you are limiting His promise by excluding wisdom concerning His Word, it’s reliability and how to discern His Word from that which claims to be His Word when the passage itself makes no such limitation. I don’t how to make it any simpler michelle.

michelle whenever you are challenged and don’t know what to do you ask a series of rhetorical questions designed to misalign the answer to them and the issue you are evading and that is the scope of the James 1:5 passage. This limits your effectiveness.

Yes, I now understand that God has preserved His Word and how He did it.
I didn’t when I first read this passage many years ago.
I asked for wisdom concerning His Word. He answered. I left the Church of Rome.

Why don’t you know?


HankD

 

I could say the same thing about weak and ambiguous translations in the KJV... and it wouldn't be true then either.

All translations have strengths and weaknesses. I happen to agree that in my opinion the majority text deserves greater respect. That, however, does not translate into the KJV or the TR being God's "words" to the extent that a deviation from them is a corruption or weakening of His Word.

Over and over you have been challenged to show proof that what you call omissions are not actually additions in the TR. To date, you have avoided and evaded taking this challenge on. For you to continue to claim these "omissions" when you have not proven your point is just more evidence that you are operating under willful self-deception.

 

I humbly thank you for the compliment.

 

No Michelle. Those verses are the words of the KJV translators.

If you are talking about the original language words then which words are the words of God and what is your proof that they are? Again, there is no majority text in for these verses and the oldest texts don't provide a clear option either.

What you have in the TR, whether you like it or not, is the text that in the opinion of a 16th century RCC scholar of what the ending of Mark should be. Undoubtedly, his opinion was based on the traditions and scholarship underpinning his educational training... RCC traditions and scholarship. This doesn't make the text wrong nor inaccurate. It does however make your claim of these being the "words of God" a very long stretch.

You still haven't reconciled this fact Michelle. For all of your sandbagging and handwringing, you still have a problem that cannot be reconciled within your beliefs. You obviously recognize this as well since you continue to avoid giving a direct answer.

Yes. And I have given you my beliefs on the subject and explained in detail the differenc between God's 'Word' and God's 'words'.

The same way all of those past Christians did whose book of Mark contained something different from the TR/KJV reading... which would number 70%+.

I will build my beliefs on no less than two indisputable texts and by comparing scripture with scripture. For instance, I don't believe that all believers (vs 17) will "take up serpents" as the KJV implies in Mark 16:17-18. Comparing with other scripture, it is obvious to me that this, as a physical act, is not normative throughout the church age.

I would guess that your belief on serpents is similar to mine. But if it is then you don't really believe the KJV because it specifically says "And these signs shall follow them that believe...They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them".

When was the last time you went snake handling or drank a little Jim Jones kool aid?

... I didn't think so.

 

robycop:I shall make the same challenge to you as I made to Ken: Please post any message from me from any board I've ever posted on, where I say I reject the KJV. I've posted ONLY under the handles robycop3, Steelmaker, & my real name, Cranston P. Roby.
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Michelle:So which is it Cranston? Are the last 12 verses of Mark God's words or not?

robycop:Just answer the previous challenge, if you can, M'am. Then we can move on.
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You will find the answer to your question to me when you answer the question I have posed to you.
Come on Cranston, you are a smart enouph person to figure it out. Is an alcholic still an alcoholic even though he says he is not? Even though he denies he has had a drink, can you still tell whether he has been drinking, and how? How can one tell he is an alcoholic? Does he have to state that he is?

I copied this series of posts to show the other readers that up till now you simply have not accepted the little challenge I presented to you concerning your statement that I reject the KJV. You just cannot deal with or tell the truth most of the time, can you? Try dealing with what was presented to you first without trying to divert us with some little sideshow. The issue of the last 12 verses of Mark has nothing to do with whether I ever stated I reject the KJV or not.

You stated I said I rejected the KJV. Now, please verify that statement or the readership will know you've proven yourself a liar.

WE'RE WAITING!

As for alcoholics-I had one tell me, "The difference between a drunk & an alcoholic is that us drunks don't hafta attend them meetings once a month".

 

Michelle:I do not believe men, I believe God and his promises. It is called faith in what God has said concerning his words, and what he has done, and will continue to do.

But you continue to ignore what God HAS done. In English, He's presented His word in many versions, no two of which are alike. The English speakers were happy with this until the Onlyism monster reared its ugly head. This monster certainly isn't of GOD.

 

Michelle:Brother Cranston, it is not the same issue, nor can these two things be compared as being acceptable.

Yes, they CAN, and ARE.

YOU don't wanna acknowledge it because it destroys your pet myth. Differences within one work carry MUCH more weight than do differences between works.


What God breathed to those writers to write is accurate and God had reason for it (those differences). What is not authorized, nor the same thing, as one of those preserved mss to differ from what has been preserved.

So you arbitrarily pick & choose from the mss what you guess is the "official" writings. ALL have been preserved or they wouldn't be here! Common sense!


If God has said something, and it has been preserved, that is the word of God. WE can not accept those things that have taken away from what God has breathed and preserved and call it the same thing, for it is not, it is called tampering/altering/corrupting God's word.

So you simply guess, and tell those who disagree that they're wrong. Outstanding.


Either those verses that the modern versions have omitted are God breathed and preserved, or they are not. Now, what am I to believe, is the last 12 verses of the gospel of Mark God's word, or not? And how do you know?

I don't-and neither do YOU. You're just GUESSING.

Someone several hundred years ago could've added to Mark, "Both thieves reviled Jesus at first, but one of them repented & beseeched Jesus to remember Him when He came into His kingdom" & we would have no absolute way to know if this was a genuine writing of Mark's or not, especially if this writing appeared in several mss. After all, the same story is found in Luke.That's why there's question of the last 12 verses of Mark-scholars question them because of the number of mss where they don't appear, the difference in writing style of the Greek, etc. It's NOT because these scholars are irreverent men; it's because they don't want to be guilty of ADDING to God's word, a deed which He condemns same as He does omitting from it.


And if you do not know, or it doesn't matter, then how can you be absolutely sure of your faith and that what you believe is the truth?

Because I have faith in the unseen from that which is seen. What is seen? The unfolding of history precisely as prophesied in the Bible, and in no other literature that even begins to approach the age of the Bible. The miracle of my wife's healing after what ordinarily would've been a fatal accident.
http://www.irontontribune.com/articles/2000/12/12/news/export2463.txt

The continued existence of the Jews as a separate, distinct people despite their being relatively few in number as compared with the numbers of many other peoples, and despite the most horrific persecution for over 2500 years. These are just a few of the things seen by which I have faith in the unseen.(I shall not get into personal things between God and me.)


How will you be able to witness this to those who do not believe?

From the Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit, same as usual.

What is your foundation for the truth and how can you claim it?

The foundation is the over 5K mss or parts of mss that God has preserved for us, and the various translations made from them.

You said you're not KJVO. What other BV(s) besides the KJV do you recommend?

Please paste any message from me where I say I reject the KJV.

 

Michelle:The thing that might help you, is if you take God's word as your sole authority on the matter and use God's word of truth as your foundation.

You should practice what you preach. This means take the authority of ALL of God's word, not just that which is convenient for you, or those versions or mss which suit the man-made KJVO myth.

If you do not do this, you are going to fail in your understanding miserably, and quite possibly allow yourself to be deceived.

YOU are a fine example of JUST THAT!

God's word has made it quite clear who this woman is, and quite clear that we are to avoid those that teach a different gospel and a different Christ.

Which is what KJVOism borders upon doing.

OH...I forgot...You said you're NOT KJVO! Please tell us what other BV(s) you recommend besides the KJV.

And please paste any message of mine from any board where I say I reject the KJV.

 

robycop:In other words, YOU CANNOT TRUTHFULLY ANSWER THE QUESTION! You've said several times that you're NOT KJVO, that KJVO was just a label & that it didn't apply to you. What is a KJVO? You've seen Dr. Bob's definitions, I'm sure. If you don't believe any other English BV is God's word, then you're KJVO. But you've said you're NOT KJVO, which means you either use at least one other BV along with the KJV, or you're LYING. It CANNOT be both ways, Michelle!

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I do not need to use another version of God's word just because I acknowledge that it also is a good translation of God's word, in order to not fit the label.

But surely you know its NAME!!!!


I don't know the names of bibles in other languages, but I have faith that God has provided for them. I don't know much about the Geneva Bible, but I believe that if it was accurately translated from the received text that it also is God's words of truth. I do not need to use it, in order to believe it.

The GB and KJV are different. For example, look at Psalm 12:7. In the KJV, it reads, "...thou shalt preserve THEM..." while in the GB it reads, "...thou shalt preserve HIM..."

By your above statement, you believe both are right. How dare you then be a critic of any Scriptural mss?


I have already God's words that he provided in an excellent and accurate translation of His words into my own language that are still His words of truth and just as authoritative as what it is translated from.

So do I, and the other readers.


Again, it might help you, and our communication if we come off the labels, and start discussing the issues.

If the label fits, wear it.

We HAVE been trying to discuss the issues, but YOU are trying to go ahead & post while avoiding them. For example, you've said several times you're NOT KJVO, and have been asked many times what other BV(s) you'd recommend. Only now, you acknowledge the Geneva Bible, although the AV was made for the purpose of replacing the GB. And you've made an issue by saying things about people that you cannot prove, such as your saying yesterday that I reject the KJV - THEN, you avoid the issue by failing to paste any post of mine from any board where I've said I reject the KJV. Why do you avoid it? because you know YOU WERE WRONG, & just won't admit it. But that's OK - the rest of the readership sees right through your little game & knows you're an Aesop wannabee, a teller of tall tales.

 

Michelle:It might do you well, to not only look at the context in this passage, to which I also have done,

No, you haven't. You've invented your own context to cover your own back when another statement of yours was proven wrong.

but also rightly divide the word of truth.

And the word of truth is that Paul mentions "that Wicked", who can be none other than the Antichrist. These words of Paul's rightly divide the truth of the context of this set of verses from the falsehood of your statement.

Quick refresher: Michelle alleges that God has sent "strong delusion" on me that I should believe a lie, according to Scripture. I replied that this was a classic example of ripping a verse out of context, that the verse to which she refers is concerning the Antichrist. I shall post all the verses right here from the KJV so you other readers can see the context for yourselves & see who is right:

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What do you believe the truth is? Better yet, what does the Lord tell us truth is?

The truth above is that there verses refer to the AC & his followers.

 

Michelle:No I do not pick and choose, for the words of the Lord are the same yesturday, as today and as will be tomorrow.

But you already have, by your rejection of what you believe is not God's word, for no other reason than it's different from the KJV.


There is nothing to decide to which one shall I choose. There is only one word of God, and if anything departs from or differs from it, I should reject it, knowing it is not of Him, for God is not the author of confusion and the sheep know their Shepards voice.

Whether you're willing to admit it or not, your many past statements reveal that you've indeed arbitrarily picked & chosen what you believe is God's word from among all the available material, without having any legit basis to have done so.

 

Michelle:Your first statement is simply not true.

Here's my first statement:There are many BVs that we KNOW were used in churches at one time or another, and we KNOW God has preserved His word.

Please tell us what's not true in it.


Please show me in those Bibles where they omitted verses of scripture from the received text that have weakened doctrines and the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

I cannot understand your phrasing, but I'll try to answer as best I can. If my answer doesn't match the intent of your question, please ask it again, worded differently.

Any Bible not made entirely from the received text may have not included some verses found in the RT but not in other sources. An example would be 1 John 5:7. However, this does NOT automatically mean that these other sources are wrong.


The differences you try to make from the Bibles all based upon the received text, are not the same thing as a modern version bible based upon the critical text to those of a Bible based upon the received text.

The differences found within the pages of any one Bible made from either the RT or other mss should tell you something. Again, the differences found within a given work carry much more weight than those found between works.


There can be no comparison. It is the underlying texts that is the issue here. One text is the preserved word of God accepted throughout church history, and the other is a corrupt text, only recently accepted as God's word in the churches.

You really need to read up on the histories of the underlying texts to see the REAL story of which texts were used the most, and which were used FIRST in church history.

 

Though I disagree with your position concerning the authority of the last 12 verses of the KJV of the Gospel of Mark, I understand the premise and that you are just as passionate to NOT add to the Word of God as others are concerning with deletions of the same.

This what "they" can't or won't believe.

HankD

 

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quote:
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Better yet, please explain what is wisdom?
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Why don’t you know?
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Psalms 111

1. Praise ye the Lord. I will praise the Lord with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation.
2. The works of the Lord are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.
3. His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4. He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the Lord is gracious and full of compassion.
5. He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant.
6. He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
7. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
9. He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
10. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Psalms 112

1. Praise ye the Lord. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
2. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
3. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4. Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
5. A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion.
6. Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.
7. He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord.
8. His heart is established, he shall not be afraid, until he see his desire upon his enemies.
9. He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.
10. The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.


Proverbs 3

1. My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2. For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4. So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5. Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9. Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10. So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
11. My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:
12. For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
13. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
19. The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20. By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21. My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22. So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23. Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24. When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
25. Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
26. For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
27. Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
28. Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.
29. Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee.
30. Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.
31. Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.
32. For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous.
33. The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
34. Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
35. The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

Proverbs 4

1. Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
2. For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
3. For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4. He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5. Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
8. Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
9. She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
10. Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.
11. I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.
12. When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.
13. Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.
14. Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.
15. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.
16. For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
17. For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
18. But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
19. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
20. My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26. Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27. Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.


Proverbs 9

1. Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
2. She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
3. She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,
4. Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
5. Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
6. Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
7. He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
8. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
10. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
11. For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.
12. If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.
13. A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.
14. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,
15. To call passengers who go right on their ways:
16. Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
17. Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
18. But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Malachi 3

16. Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


Matthew 10

28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 1

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There are many more passages and verses of scripture that teach us about true wisdom. I understand, do you?

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

In the words of another "there you go again"

2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

HankD

 

Michelle:That is where the Holy Spirit of truth comes in with understanding and rightly dividing the word of truth. Comparing scripture with scripture, and precept upon precept in order to fully understand what the Lord is telling us in his word.

You really need to practice what you preach. In this very thread, I pointed out where you'd ripped a verse out of context, namely 2 Thessalonians 2:11. I posted the whole set of verses to show the other readers the TRUE context of V.11. "I" didn't prove you wrong; your own fave Bible version, the KJV, did. All one need do to see you were wrong is to do what you say above: place verse upon verse & precept upon precept.


THis is why every single word of God is important.

THEN WHY DO YOU BYPASS SOME OF THEM AS YOU DID IN THE EXAMPLE ABOVE?


Either Lucifer is representing Satan, or he is not. Either the rapture is true, or it is not. God reveals these truths to us in his word, but we must study them and pray about them to receive the understanding of the truth to apply to our lives and share with others. Lucifer is Satan. The rapture is true. The Roman Catholic Church is the woman who rides the beast. God's word reveals these things to be truth. YOu must study to know and understand, have faith in, and be confident in so that you are able to contend for the faith and truth as indicated in God's word. To say that Lucifer "might" be speaking of Satan, is not being confident in what the Lord reveals to us in his word regarding him.

The Lord specifically mentions the KING OF BABYLON, most likely Belshazzar, in Isaiah 14. Are you possibly ADDING a precept by insisting it's Satan?

As for the RCC, it's possible it could once again gain some political power, but that's not the case right now. Remember, the "whore" is RIDING the beast, meaning she's controlling him.

When JFK became President, there were doomsayers saying the RCC had gotten control of the USA. We now know JFK's RCism had no bearing upon his conduct as President. Again I'm not saying it's impossible for the RCC to regain power, but right now in the USA, the recent "Boyzz R Us" scandals have brought the nation's general opinion of it lower than a snake's belly. Again, given the worldwide prevalence of various offshoots of the "Mustery, Babylon" religion such as Hinduism, Moonies, New Age, Wicca, B'hai, & occultism and witchcraft in general, this seems to be the candidate right now. And we cannot discount ISLAM. Its supporters are trying hard to get it accepted in the traditionally-Christian nations.

 

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What do you believe the truth is? Better yet, what does the Lord tell us truth is?

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Cranston,

You never answered this question. What is the truth? What does the Lord say is the truth?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle