What Biblical Basis is there...

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Rev. 3:10 say nothing about the resurrection, gathering, Christ's coming, wrath of God, etc.
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Oh really?


Revelation 1

19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


What are the things which he has seen, which are,
and hereafter?

Well:

1. Things that he has seen:

we see that Jesus Christ is giving the seven letters to the seven churches that he has seen

2. Things that are:

we again, see the warnings, condemnations, and encouragements of the Lord to his churches: the specifics of these types of churches, and what they have done, and are doing that are right, and what are wrong, and what happens if they do not repent.


3. Things hereafter (in this case after this (the first two above):

1. the rapture

2. what follows this, is what comes hereafter the rapture

Revelation 4

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter[I/].

(description of the rapture, or gathering together of the saints:

1 Thess. 4

15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.)
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

( and after this (the present churches which he saw and are) Immediately he was in the spirit before the throne of God in HEAVEN:

1 Cor. 15

42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly].
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.)


And here is what is HEREAFTER the rapture:

(Rev. 4:1 Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter[I/][/B].)


Revelation 5

1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, honour, and glory, and blessing.
13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


THEN...


Revelation 6

1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


(This is antichrist, who has no arrows with his bow, is given a crown (kingly authority) who conquers others by way of PEACE.)


3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


(Peace is now taken from the earth:


1 Thessalonians 5

1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.)


Just for more information regarding this time, being spoken of, is the time of the wrath of God, here is something for you:

Jeremiah 6

9. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets.
10. To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.
11. Therefore I am full of the fury of the Lord; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
12. And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord.
13. For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.
16. Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17. Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18. Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19. Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.


Ezekiel 13

1. And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;
3. Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4. O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.
6. They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God.
9. And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.
10. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11. Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
12. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
13. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
14. So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
15. Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16. To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God.


(also Read Zephaniah 1-3)


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

You are quite welcome. Thank you for the kind words and also for the diligence you put into the posts above.


May God continue to bless.
Michael

 

Matthew 22
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think the garments in these verses are referring to salvation. If a person is clothed in their righteousness, it is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) and not fit for the wedding. They will be cast into outer darkness (hell).

We must be clothed with Christ's righteousness to attend the wedding.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Zechariah 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Isaiah 61:10. I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Galatians 3:6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


The goats and the sheep in Matthew 25 are the nations being judged:
Matt. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
It is not individual people being judged on whether they are saved or not, but it is a judgment of the nations on how they treated (or mistreated) Israel.

 

Michael Hobbs: "The goats and the sheep in Matthew 25 are the nations being judged:
Matt. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
It is not individual people being judged on whether they are saved or not, but it is a judgment of the nations on how they treated (or mistreated) Israel."

Amen, Michael Hobbs -- Preach it!


That is judgement #4 bolded below:
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Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God.

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Michelle,

I am busy. But, I will reply back to you next Tuesday, because I will have night off from 3rd shift jon - 3 nights in a row - Tues, Wed, and Thurs. I will have time to reply back you.

By the way, Ed Edwards, 2 Thess. 2:15 does not saying pretribulation. Church history telling the fact, that Early Christians believed there is the only one future coming. None of the records in any Early commentatories, books, scholars teaching on two phases of the second coming. Because it was not yet exist in their time. Also, word, 'rapture' was not a popular among Early Christians. They understood, when Christ shall come, we shall be gathering together to meet Christ in the air. They never use word, 'rapture' in their time. In other word, they understood word, 'rapture' actual mean emotional, joy.

The two phases of second coming doctrine was not yet developed till 19th Century by John N. Darby. Also, Darby emphasised on word, 'rapture'. That's how, many Christians adopted Darby's teaching during 19th Century to today. Today, rapture is a very popular doctrine word among Christians relate with Eschatology or end times.

I agreed with my old deaf Christian friend, he told me, he rather to use sign 'caught up', instead sign, 'rapture'. Because, that word is not find in the Bible. Brumleyj knows what I am talking about.

Later, I will discuss more about marriage of the Lamb, what Michelle and Hobbs recent discuss.

I will reply back to you on Tuesday night more details what Michelle said.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "Church history telling the fact, that Early Christians believed there is the only one future coming."

Strange, all you ever showed is that you cannot tell the
difference between "one" and "one and only".
Jesus the one and only begotten Son of God
(you and i are adopted Sons of God).
Their is one future coming of Jesus.
Their is NOT one AND ONLY ONE future coming of Jesus.
Rarely will you find that "and only" in the Bible.
And you sure haven't found it here

DeafPosttrib: //I agreed with my old deaf Christian friend, he told me, he rather to use sign 'caught up', instead sign, 'rapture'. Because, that word is not find in the Bible. Brumleyj knows what I am talking about.//

I prefer to call it "the Great Snatch". But perverse
people giggle when i use it
BTW, "rapture" is found in the Latin Bibles in 1 Thess.

 

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I think the garments in these verses are referring to salvation. If a person is clothed in their righteousness, it is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) and not fit for the wedding. They will be cast into outer darkness (hell).

We must be clothed with Christ's righteousness to attend the wedding.
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Hi Michael,


I agree, that this passage can and does apply to the church. However, I cannot see this being specific to the church, as we are not guests at the wedding, but the bride of the bridegroom of the wedding, and the guests of the wedding feast are the ones being spoken of. There will be jews in that day the Lord returns, individual people, that are not really saved in the congregation at the beginning of Christ's reign, ALONG with the nations. Those who are invited to the wedding feast, are those being called to the millenial kingdom, the kingdom of God on earth, and those who are saved. All of Israel shall be saved as a nation, however there are probably some who are with them, that are not really saved, and therefore do not have the proper garment on, to remain in the Holy City and to rule with Christ. THe outer darkness I believe is referring to outside of the nation of Israel, and they are sent outside of it, to where there has been much destruction and darkness. The nations are judged, but they indeed live in the outer darkness, under the reign of Christ. The nation of Israel will be Holy and full of light. The rest of the nations will not, but they will go to Jerusalem every year. I think there are two meanings to the outer darkness. One spiritual, as applied to the church and referring to Hell, and one physical/literal as referring to the physical at this time, outside of Israel. This makes the most sense to me, in light of all scriptural truth concerning the church, the nation of Israel, the other nations, and individuals still living on earth specifically at that time Christ begins to reign.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I agreed with my old deaf Christian friend, he told me, he rather to use sign 'caught up', instead sign, 'rapture'. Because, that word is not find in the Bible. Brumleyj knows what I am talking about.
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The word "rapture" is a word that means "to be caught up". Using this word only sums up what the scriptures say in one word, rather than a phrase. It means the same thing. Don't get caught up in words. You will confuse yourself. Do a study on the word "rapture". It means both a physical as well as spiritual. It is the most appropriate and accurate word to describe this event, and this is why it is used.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

The word "rapture" (being transported by a lofty emotion) used to be a common word used in casual conversation in secular context. The phrase "joy and rapture" was what one would have said instead of "that's so cool!" or "I'm really excited for you".

The word is no longer a part of casual conversation (having gone the way of "huzzah"), but is still used by us Christians in the biblical context. This is similar to our use of the word "Lord", which used to simply mean "master" but now is used extrascripturally only in a very limited number of occaisions (such as an English lord, or drug lord, etc)

 

Amen, Sister Michelle -- Preach it!

 

ED,Michelle,& Micheal you have it right.For further reading check out "things to come " by Dwight J. Pentecost

 

i argee with dpt that is fact early church history they only believe in one future coming of christ and one judgment at his coming and one ressurection/rapture at his coming until john darby developed new doctrine in 1830's called pretribulation.

i believe Jesus Christ will come AFTER the tribulation. that is simple there is no complex.

brumleyj

 

Interesting. all my posts show the earliest chruch history
that was written into the New Testament -- lots of Bible
proofs but none of John Darby's writings. In fact, i've never
really read any writings of John Darby. In fact, John Darby
only gets mentioned FIRST by non-pretribulation rapturists.
So who is REALLY fostering the teachings of John Darby?