What can unregenerate man do?

What does this information tell us about the Calvinists comparison of an unsaved spirit to a dead body? Well, a dead body doesn't function. In fact, a dead body has lost all of its primary functions. It does not act on or interact with the physical environment. It is inanimate, meaning, it does not move. It's like a rock or a lump of coal. It begins to decompose and return to general dust and dirt.

But is a dead spirit just as nonfunctioning? Nope. A dead spirit still functions. In particular, a dead spirit still continues to carry out one of its primary functions: the function of animating the human body.

We know when we see a dead body that the body is dead precisely because the human spirit has left it, just as Psalms 146 states. This means that even a dead spirit still animates a human body. So, and here's the key, unlike a dead body which no longer functions, a dead spirit still does function. And that distinction makes all the difference in the world.

Remember earlier we said that Calvinists confuse the effects of the event with the event itself? Or, in other words, Calvinists confused the effects that death has on the body with the very definition of death in general.

The result is that Calvinists assume that part of what it means to die is to lose functionality. Because the body loses all functionality in death, Calvinists assume a dead spirit has also lost its functionality. Because communicating with God is one of the functions of the human spirit, Calvinists assume a dead spirit cannot communicate with God or reach out to God in any way. Like a dead body has lost all function, according to the Calvinists, the dead spirit has lost the function of communicating with God.

But, as we have demonstrated, a dead spirit has not lost all function as a dead body has. A dead body cannot act on anything. A dead spirit still acts on the body to invigorate it. Thus we have proven that the effects death has are not uniform for all forms of death. In particular, physical death has the effect of causing the body to cease functioning, while spiritual death does not cause the cessation of function.

Or, to put it even more simply. In physical death, the body becomes inactive. But even after spiritual death, the spirit remains active, performing the action of invigorating the body. So, we cannot presume a loss of spiritual function just because the term "death" is being used. And, a little later on, we will examine a more accurate and consistent definition of death.

However, at this point, there is a second important distinction that should be made between a body and a spirit that pertains to the "death" comparison. Specifically, the body is NEVER capable of communication, even when it's alive. That is to say, the body NEVER communicates as an independent conscious unit. When the tongue moves and the mouth speaks, that is the human soul and spirit communicating and using the physical body as a vehicle for communication. Communication is an inherent function of the inner man, not the physical body.

Why are we making this point?

Well, we need to understand the difference between a communicative device and a communicative agent.

What is the difference between a communicative device and a communicative agent? A communicative agent has in it the inherent ability to originate communication, while a communicative device is simply an object through which that agent delivers that communication.

A communicative device, like a megaphone or telephone, does not communicate on its own. It is only an instrument through which something communicates. You don't get a phone call from a telephone. You don't get yelled at by a megaphone. You get a phone call from someone else communicating to you through a telephone. You get yelled at by someone shouting at you through a megaphone.

Similarly, a human body doesn't talk to you. A human body doesn't whisper a secret in your ear or tell you it loves you. A human body is a device through which a human soul or spirit communicates to you. The human soul or spirit is the communicative agent while the body is simply a communicative device through which that agent delivers communication.

When the Calvinists assert that when a human body is dead, it cannot respond or communicate, they are distorting the facts. It is true that a dead body cannot communicate. But it is equally true that a living body cannot originate communication either. A live body is no more capable of originating communication than a dead body because a body, living or dead, is only a communicative device, it lacks the ability to originate communication altogether.

So, for Calvinists to assert that "a dead human spirit cannot communicate because a dead human body cannot communicate" is a gross distortion of the facts. To make this comparison requires the assumption that the spirit and body are alike in their ability to originate communication. Thus, by looking at one you can deduce truths about the other because they are similar in that respect.

But, the ability of a body to communicate bears no relevance to the ability of a spirit to communicate because the body, unlike the soul or spirit, never has the ability to originate communication. They are completely different in that respect. For Calvinists to make this comparison would be the same as saying "just like a dead worm doesn't think, a dead human can't think either." Such a statement assumes that humans and worms are alike in their ability to think. Since a worm, living or dead, can't really think, it bears no relevance for making deductions about a dead human.

The same is true with the body. A body, living or dead, does not possess the ability to originate communication. So, a dead body bears no relevance for making deductions about whether or not a dead spirit can originate communication.

Looking at a dead body's inability to communicate as a point of reference, a Calvinist will assert, "when a human spirit is dead, neither can it respond or communicate." And conversely a Calvinist will say, "only when a human spirit is alive can it communicate" (in the same way that a human body can only communicate when it is alive.)

But this is a false comparison because even when the human body is alive it is able to communicate only because the human spirit is communicating through it. And this is true for both the saved and the unsaved human. This means that the unsaved spirit still retains the function of communication even when that spirit is dead, for a dead spirit originates and delivers communication through its body. Thus, a dead spirit, unlike a body (living or dead) still has the ability to originate communication.

Since even unsaved humans have the ability to originate communication and deliver that communication through their bodies, it is, therefore, erroneous for Calvinists to make deductions about a spirit's ability to originate communication by looking at a body's ability to originate communication.

 

John Calvin's Commentaries, John 8:32:

 

Help me out Jerome, honestly. Does this mean in the Calvinist camp, faith precedes regeneration? Please believe me, I am NOT trying to be "snippy" with you.

 

Calvinist partisans have all kinds of theories; I was quoting Calvin himself candidly admitting what the Bible teaches.

"It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth." —Charles Spurgeon

"In [Calvin's] expositions he is not always what moderns would call Calvinistic; that is to say, where Scripture maintains the doctrine of predestination and grace he flinches in no degree, but inasmuch as some Scriptures bear the impress of human free action and responsibility, he does not shun to expound their meaning in all fairness and integrity." —Charles Spurgeon

 

Ok, so expound on this point some more.

Jack chooses God, John chooses to reject God. Who was the determining factor of who got saved. It can't be both.

Example
God chooses Jack gets saved, but Jack chooses to reject Christ. Which one determines Jack's destiny? Is Jack saved.

If not, then Jack was the determining factor. How can both be the determining factor with opposite determinations?

If so, then God was the determining factor.

how can both be?

 

After 30 pages dont they close out these threads....this is getting tedious

 

My friend. EWF, I will bow out. My respect and admiration for you inspires me to do so.

 

There are two kinds of sin that lead to death...

The first is evil sin, where the unregenerate man does or does not do anything he can in opposition to God's moral, civil, and doctrinal law. He breaks commandments, and literally curses God and dies.

The second is good sin, where the unregenerate man lives as good a life as possible, obeys the moral, civil, and doctrinal law. He keeps the commandments, and literally praises God -- but still dies.

Why?

Because without the imputed righteousness of Christ, whether we are zealous for God and come to God under our own choice or strength, we are yet lost. It is not what we do that matters, but what Christ does for us.

The sad part is that so many cannot see that the second sin leads to death just as the first.

 

"They are always posing themselves and others with questions which are hard to be understood, while the simple gospel they neglect. If they could understand the mystery of predestination, and untie the knotty points of man's free-will and God's fore-ordination, they dream that things then would go well with them, whereas there is no more connection between salvation and the understanding of the mystery of predestination than there is between cracking nuts and healing the sick. The two things are entirely distinct. A man may know little enough about the doctrine of grace, aud yet he may have the grace of the doctrine in his heart. It is well to know all mysteries, but without faith in Christ Jesus, who alone can save us, it would profit us nothing." —Spurgeon's The Sword and the Trowel

 

Bro. Luke,

We are smarter(CHRISTians) than those who are lost. Look at these passages:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

But this is talking about "Spiritual" wisdom. There is a BIG difference between "Spiritual" and "natural" wisdom. Natural wisdom has caused people to deny there is a God through science. Spiritual wisdom shows that there is a God, and that what He says will happen, will happen. However, "Spiritual" wisdom comes from God.

You see, Bro Luke, I am what they would call a synergist(sp?) meaning that we cooperate with the Holy Ghost in salvation. We do not boast in our salvation, but Jesus will not go in where He is not welcome.

Here are some verses for you to chew on:

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

It states plainly that Jesus loved him, but when he walked away, Jesus let him go. Why? Because he rejected everything that Jesus said.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

So you see again, Bro. Luke, man can, and does reject Christ. Even if there is an "elect", and Jesus loved the "elect" only, then the rich man(who would meet the qualifications of the "elect") walked away. I have never read where he came back, either. In Matthew chapter 11 and Mark chapter 5, it tells of the woman with the 12 years issue of blood. When she reasoned in her heart that if she could only touch the hem of His garment, she knew she would be made whole, it was only when she reached out and touched, that she was made whole. So, she "had" something" to do. If she hadn't "reached and touched", Jesus would have passed on by, and she would have still been ill. This is why I am a synergist. When God "calls", we must "respond", to be saved. I hope this helps.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other— Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine." —Particular Baptist Abraham Booth, Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners

"Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James uses the term, may precede." —Souther Baptist "Founder" John Dagg, Manual of Theology

 

I agree. I posted awhile back that Jesus is our redeemer. The word redeem means to buy back or pay a ransom. How can Jesus buy back someone who was never His to begin with?? At some point in our lives we belonged to God (spiritually alive). At some point we willfully sinned (just as Adam) and died spiritually. It is then that we need to be bought back.
To me, understanding the redemption of Christ for our souls explains what happens to babies when they die and also how we spiritually die.