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What do Monergism and Synergism mean and why are they important?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Oct 13, 2017.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That is all fine and dandy,

    My question is:
    Does a person receive regeneration before or after they hear the gospel?

    Maybe before you ever heard of Jesus or before you knew what a bible was......the light shown from heaven.....regenerated you. Right? That is how it happened?
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    ROFL Follow the herd, on this message board? Monergists are a minority on this board, albeit a vocal one.
     
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  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The preaching (or hearing) of the Gospel is the ordinary means of salivation. In order to understand its message regeneration must have taken place first. A corpse is unable to understand anything.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I still want to hear when you were regenerated BEFORE or AFTER hearing the Gospel.

    Well maybe you know from direct experience or heard of someone who was an atheist never heard of Jesus, never heard the gospel, They were in the middle of their secular day and just out of the blue were regenerated, not knowing a single thing about Jesus Christ.


    Maybe some guy in a tribe in Africa, hasn't a clue of Jesus, just spontaneously regenerates.
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The answer to your question is in the third paragraph, not counting this one, in bold font.

    Regeneration precedes understanding the Gospel, not just hearing. That's an important distinction I should have made earlier. I apologize. And by understanding, I don't mean just knowing what the words mean, but spiritually understanding the words.

    Let's say "Joe" is invited by a Christian friend to church. Joe goes and hears a gospel message. Joe leaves unconverted (unregenerated). Over the next few days, Joe mulls over the words of the sermon he heard. Then, one-day while under terrible conviction, the Holy Spirit gives Joe an understanding that is more than just the knowledge of facts. Joe understands the gravity of his sin. The words of the Gospel that he heard days before weigh on him hard. Joe understands the words of the Gospel spiritually. Joe places His faith in Jesus Christ. When was Joe regenerated?

    It's not just hearing the words of the Gospel that results in faith. It is hearing with a new heart (regeneration). So, regeneration precedes hearing the Gospel but hearing with understanding. It is the Holy Spirit that gives the understanding. That is the answer to your question.

    By the way, Joe's story is my story. When I was in third grade a girl named Audrey invited me to a youth group at a local Evangelical Free Church. It was at that youth group that I first heard the Gospel. I said the sinner's prayer along with a bunch of other young people, but I really didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have spiritual eyes. I wasn't saved. Flash forward nearly 9 years and I heard the Gospel for the second time. That time the message kept nagging me until that "one day" came and I felt I either had to believe or I would die. That is when I was born again. That is when I was regenerated. God the Holy Spirit granted me the spiritual eyes to understand my sin and its remedy in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

    Now, I can quote a bunch of verses that get technical about the components of salvation. Instead of doing that I will just point you back to post #112.

    As far as that tribal person who never heard the Gospel, but yet came to faith, I'm sorry, but those are usually anecdotal stories with important details missing. Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." There is no salvation apart from the proclamation of the Gospel. It may be in written form, sermon audio, or heard over the radio, or even the pulpit -- apart from the Gospel there is no salvation. Romans 1:17, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I really expected the tribal guy to be regenerated without any knowledge of Jesus Christ. See because lets say there are four, Two REFUSE to listen to the gospel altogether, Two agree to listen, we can only bet the 2 who cooperated to listen the gospel have possibility of having that regenerative understanding. That's kinda inclusive of a synergism.

    Like when you read the gospel they are not tied up with headphones forced to listen the gospel right? Its bit towards their own free will. Imagine we would have to tie everyone up and force them to hear the gospel.

    They choose to listen or not. God chooses if they understand or not.


    Look at Joe's timeline, we stuck a pin Joe leaves unregenerated its until 9 years later, after hearing the gospel, after the nagging on the "ONE DAY" regeneration starts.

    That can't be right, regeneration has to start without Joe's "cooperation" He has to get hit and listen to the gospel in the first place.

    Else we have to say there is synergism involved when unregenerated Joe decided to listen to the gospel which is not forced on him, he had a choice to listen.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Regeneration and conversion are inseparable as repentance and faith are inseparable in a cause and effect relationship. Regeneration is completed in conversion just as repentance is completed in faith.

    For example, repentance is an inward change from something to something. For example, repentance is an inward change from something to something. You cannot be changed from, or turned from something without at the very same time being changed to, or turned to something else. However, the cause is found in being changed or turned from something whereas the consequence is being changed or turned to something else. What is being changed is the heart, mind and will. The heart which loves sin is changed from a love of sin to love of holiness. The mind which is in the darkness of unbelief is changed from unbelief to belief. The will which resists God is changed to submission to God. That is our experience of conversion. However, the power behind this change is God's work of regeneration. Regeneration in part is our spirit being brought into spiritual union with God. That act of union is with the life, light, love and holiness of God which is the recreation of our spirit in the moral image of God as explained in Ephesians 4:24 and Col. 3:10. Union with God's light brings the mind out of the darkness of unbelief. Union with God's holiness brings the heart out of love for sin. Union with God's love brings the will of out resistance. It is this threefold change by union with God's light, holiness and love that is eternal life - thus union with God's life.

    The vehicle for this creative change is the gospel when empowered by the Spirit of God so that it comes "not in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5a) and not just externally as the rhema (command) of men who preach it (Rom. 10:18), but it comes inwardly as the creative command (rhema - 2 Cor. 4:6a; Rom. 10:17) "in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" so that it transforms or changes the elect into the same manner of person as those preaching the gospel (1 Thes. 1:5-7). The combination of this empowered gospel within the elect is the effectual "call" out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light just as God called light into the darkness of this world (Gen. 1:2-3 with 2 Cor. 4:6).

    Regeneration and conversion are simultaneous in action but in a cause and effect relationship so that there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever nor a unregenerated believer.

    The human spirit governs our moral nature. The unregenerate spirit is active in relationship with Satan and therefore shares his moral nature. The moral condition of the human spirit determines the moral inclination of the soul (heart, mind and will). When the human spirit is regenerated then the soul "delights in the law of God after the inward man." It is the moral state of the human spirit that determines the moral inclination of the soul so that a regenerated spirit provides a will that is present to do good (Rom. 7:18b) whereas the indwelling Spirit provides the power behind that inclination so that good is effectual in the life of the believer (Rom.8:9-13; Philip. 2:13).

    In some cases the Holy Spirit uses the natural convicting powers resident in the conscience and His word prior to regeneration that only produce inward misery until that misery is relieved by quickening in conversion (2 Cor. 10:4). Kicking the pricks prior to regenerative conversion is "worldly sorrow" not because it is "worldly" in the sense of "ungodliness" but in the sense that it is from NATURAL causes. Apart from divine quickening intervention worldly sorrow or natural sorrow never concludes in salvation but always in some kind of repression, religious reformation and ultimately death. However, in the elect it is always finalized by godly sorrow that is effectual to salvation.
     
    #127 The Biblicist, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see yet another false theology assertion is being made over and over, to wit, to be spiritual dead means a person cannot receive the gospel. What a joke. Folks, look at Matthew 13 and the second soil that received the gospel with joy. Thus an unregenerated, spiritually dead person was able to seek God with joy. Sure it was not with all his heart, but the fiction of their redefinition of spiritually dead meaning total spiritual inability has been shown to be bogus. On and on they go, redefining the meaning of words (regeneration to meaning making a person alive to the gospel.) Then we have Matthew 23:13 where unregenerate, spiritual dead people were entering the kingdom of heaven, thus yet again having enough spiritual ability to seek God. Pay no attention to all these obviously bogus and unbiblical claims, and all their disparagement.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    yea the dead Christians in the church at Sardis would have to be equally incapable.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am not sure of your point, but will respond concerning my view of Revelation 3:1-6. The word translated "dead" at Revelation 3:1 when used metaphorically can refer to being separated from God, or can refer to being inactive, like dead faith because it is not active, resulting in works.

    Here at the church in Sardis, we have professing Christians (wheat and tares). Jesus first addresses the tares. They have a name or reputation for being Christians (thus made alive together with Christ) but in reality they are spiritually dead, unsaved. Their names have not been entered in the Lamb's book of life.

    These tares have heard the gospel and embraced it somewhat, but not whole-heartedly. Thus their deeds or works have not been perfected (unsaved folks works are as filthy rags, but new creations are created for good works (perfected works).

    Finally the tares are told to wake up, repent for they do not know when their soul will be required of them, and they will lose their opportunity for eternal life as an overcomer. Thus Jesus believes those that are dead are able to embrace the gospel fully and effectively.

    Then Jesus turns his comments to the wheat in the church, verses 4 and 5.
     
    #130 Van, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The word dead in Rev 3 is Nekros same as anywhere else. If it is to be understood as inability then it doesnt make sense in that verse.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Spot on!!!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The very nature of us as sinners is to prefer to stay in sins and darkness, and to be at war with God, so how can those whose very nature is to resist God at all costs suddenly decide to love and accept Him now on their own?
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another unbiblical post, denying that some sinners, some of the time seek God, such as Matthew 23:13. All they do folks is make unbiblical claims with no supporting scripture.
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Your question "on their own" is a strawman
     
  16. Fin

    Fin New Member

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    Thanks.

    I continue to believe in an omnipotent God whose perfect plan for all of His creation includes provision for sufficient human freedom to hold unbelievers responsible for failing to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Lord. Conversely, I'm convinced that in His eternal plan He's made provision for favorable human response to His grace that does not compromise His overarching sovereignty.

    In subjects like this, however, I'm reminded of Isaiah 55:8,9

    “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.
    “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
    For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so my ways are higher than your ways
    and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

    It might feel reassuring to think that one has God figured out. I, for one, am looking forward to the promise of an eternity of getting to know the Holy Trinity even as I am known.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is not that we can comprehend God, the issue is can we comprehend the part He has chosen to reveal in scripture. Yes we must struggle to connect the dots without adding our own speculation into the mix.

    We must stick with the range of word meanings found in well accepted lexicons, and not redefine words to pour our theology into the text. We must be careful not to add words to expand the revealed scope such as "the things" becoming "all the things" when the text might contextually provide a narrow scope, i.e. some of the things.

    Bible study can help us grow and become better witnesses, and more helpful advisors. And if anyone, especially me, makes a claim without providing a reference to a verse or passage that supports it literally, beware. :)
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    except that not even God can save sinners based upon allowing them to have full free will, as that would make none saved, as all would reject Christ!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so. can sinners respond to God when very nature would be to reject Him?
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No one is arguing "on their own"
     
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