What do you believe is required for Salvation?

Calvinists always say this, but it is simply not true. Note: Post fall, Genesis 9...

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

The price for taking a human life was death since man is made in God's image...not pre-fall man...but man.

 

Wow...so you are telling me God decreed that Earth, wind and fire used vulgar slang making Him the author of that sin?!? Unbelievable...

FYI...saying something over and over again doesn't make it true

Can man choose? If not, man cannot be held accountable for not choosing...it's quite simple. If man has rejected something, the option to accept was also there or there is no rejection by definition. If he is not free to do right, he cannot be held accountable for doing wrong. Such a faulty view of God's perfect justice!

We've been over the "natural man", and if you fail to understand the context of Paul's writing to believers in regards to that, I don't know what to say.

 

Been there, done that.

 

I did not say that the image of God was completely irradicated. I said it was distorted and that distortion is the sinful nature. Look at Ephesus 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 which teach that the new birth is the renewal of the image of God in man.

Jesus teaches the total depravity of man in John 3:19-20 in the clearest language possible:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

1. Lost men love darkenesss
2. Lost men hate the light
3. EVERY ONE of them "neither cometh to the light"

The only ones that Christ says will come to the light are those in whom God has wrought a work of grace:

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Greek preposition "en" should be translated "by" and thus "they are wrought BY God" as in Philippians 2:13 - "For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure."

 

If the image of God is not completely eradicated from man, he cannot be "totally" depraved at the same time. "Total" doesn't give much wiggle room in the matter. I agree that it is distorted, hence the curse on man and the sinful nature.

Why did you leave "...rather than the light" off of #1? If you love something over something else, you have made a choice! You have just shown us one of MANY verses proving the free agency of a moral being!

Actually, it says that those who live by the truth come into the light, and the whole process is a work of God. Romans 1 attests to this fact that all have been given truth to accept or reject. Those that accept the most basic truths about God will be given more.

 

The "image of God" includes much more than we are dealing with. It conveys the idea that man is a rational, moral responsible creature with conscience unlike lower created life but like God. Man did not lose his rational and moral condition in the fall. He did not lose his moral responsibility or conscience. He did not lose his ability to make rational and emotional decisions.

The total depravity of man simply teaches that he lost his "God motive" ability behind all his decisions. Everything he chooses and/or does falls below "the glory of God." He is totally incapable of doing and/or choosing anything from a "God motive" or for the glory of God but is totally submerged in all that he does for the glory of self. All of his faculties are SELF-CENTERED and totally void of any kind of ability to do and choose anything by "God-motive."

I assure you that I did not leave it out on purpose. I am happy that you point it out. Man did not lose his ability to choose. He lost his ability to choose anything out of love for God or for the glory of God. Isn't that exactly what Christ means when he uses the word "more" - he loves darkness MORE than the light. Is that what Christ means when he says "every one" in that condition WILL NOT come to the light?

Total depravity does not deny that man is free to choose according to his own desires but that he is incapable of desiring to choose anything for the glory of God.

That is not what it says. It says that coming to the truth is the manifestation that it was wrought in them by God. Just look at the condition previously described by Christ in regard to "every man"!! Every man in the condition Jesus describes WILL NOT come to the light and therefore any man that does come to the light (truth) must be attributed to something else and someone else other than themselves.

Romans 1 does not teach that at all. It says nothing about being given ability to accept or reject. It only says they have ability to discern light but then declares they all reject what they discern JUST AS JESUS SAYS in John 3:19-20. You are pitting Paul against Christ and neither teach what you are adding to their words or inferring they mean.

 

Webdog, what "good thing" is in humans that would cause merit with God?

You seem to indicate that there is such a thing. I would be interested to know what it is.

And, how does that reconcile with Isaiah, who told us:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

 

Not sure if this is where I need to put this, but I have a question. Here lately I have been under conviction. . . BAD. I was saved a few years ago and my husband has just been called to preach. I feel like I sort of fell away from God, and when he announced his call it almost made me mad when everyone else was rejoicing. I know this is selfish of me and I need to learn to die to myself. Whenever there is an alter call at church, my heart jumps and at revivals I just sit there and sweat. I don't feel saved but I also don't know if all of this is stemming from emotions or people shouting or just the whole revival feeling. I have no idea whats going on. I really really thought I was saved up until recently. I have prayed and prayed and somethimes God will give me amazing peace, and sometimes conviction. I even went to the alter and prayed and asked God for peace about my salvation and begged him to save me if I wasn't saved.That Sunday I got the most amazing peace. . . . and then the conviction comes back a few weeks later. It is really starting to get to me, because I think well what if I just got saved when I went to the alter to pray and I haven't told the church? What if that is when the Lord saved me and not a few years ago? What if that was it and I need to be baptized again. I know there is a lot of emphasis put on time and place. . . but I just want to know that I know, you know? So confused.

 

I agree with all of this...however...if he did not lose his moral responsibility, he also must not have lost his ability to make such a decision. Responsibility is made up of the ability to respond.

Choosing to accept the truth presented to him by God doesn't give Him glory?
Acts 17: 6From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

2 Thess. 2:10and with all wicked deception for(S) those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

To love anything "more" than something is not totality. If man lost his ability to choose or love God, he cannot be held accountable for not choosing! Note that to love something more does not mean there is no love for the lesser.

It doesn't say anything about coming to the truth. I like how the Amplified puts it...
But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence upon Him]

Romans 1:25 states they "exchanged" the truth for a lie. God didn't do it for them...they exchanged it. To exchange anything means possession. You cannot exchange something you do not own. That is ability as plain as can be.

 

I've said no such thing, nor indicated anything remotely like it. We are not saved by "our" righteousness, we are saved by Christ's.

 

Welcome to the BB!

Do me a favor, could you copy this post and create a separate thread for this...this thread is at 34 pages and a moderator will be closing it soon (30 page limit). It would be good for you to have your own thread where your brother and sisters in Christ can walk you through this! :thumbs:

 

Correct! However, that does not mean his decision is not influenced by his own personal subjective condition. Total depravity does not deny the ability to choose but denies the ability to choose anything that will glorify God or deny selfishness (Rom. 8:7). This is precisely why Jesus said that no man can come to me except the Father draw him (Jn. 6:44). If man had the ability to come to Christ or choose Christ as you say then the words of Christ in John 6:44 are false and misleading.

Man is responsible for the fall and therefore responsible for his own inability to please God or submit to God. However, he is still responsible to please and submit to God and these texts point out that the problem does not lie with God but with man who "refused to love the truth and so be saved" and that is due to total depravity.

Correct! However, that is not what Jesus means here. He means that the choice of fallen man is controlled or dominated by his love for sin. "More" defines the dominant factor that controlls his will. If you are given a choice between something you like "MORE" than something else you will always choose what appeals to you "MORE".

John 3:19-21 is saying the exact same thing as John 6:44-45. In both texts Jesus denies that any man is capable of coming to Him (truth/light) unless God works in them. "wrought by God" here is "draw" by the Father in John 6:44. What you must face and deal with honestly is the fact that Jesus denies that any man is capable of coming to him EXCEPT that the Father draws him (Jn. 6:44) and that is exactly what he is saying in John 3:21 or you have Christ repudiating Christ.

This text does not even give the possibility of any other response to the light they were given! He never says they "possessed" it but rather they understood it and rejected it. He never indicates that anyone ever received the light but the only response Paul gives is rejection of the light. If your philosophical opinion had weight there would not be a total exclusion of any positive reception in this text and total delcaration of only negative rejection.

 

God can do whatever he wants to do. But he told us in no uncertain terms how he does some things soteriologically.

He told us that man is so depraved that he CANNOT receive the things of the spirit of God neither can he know them.

He told us that man is utterly depraved that his righteousness is as filthy rags.

He told us that man in his natural state does not seek after God, that he understandeth nothing, that his heart is desperately wicked deceitful above all things; that man can no more do right than a leopard can change his spots or an Ethiopian his skin.

This is what God said about the natural man. So before the natural man can understand, before he can seek after God, before he can do anything righteous he must be made something more than natural. This is regeneration.

Only until then can man do anything toward God.

 

good advice webdog! I commend you!:thumbsup:

 

On this you are correct. But it only makes man's sinfulness that much more wicked that he bears the image of Holy God and drags it every second of his life through the muck and mire of sin.