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What is Catholicism?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Mar 25, 2021.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Inspired by the last few pages of the now closed thread "What is Calvinism?", where a Catholic brother asked "YES or NO" questions to expose the flaws in Calvinism. I thought that some "equal opportunity" was in order.

    Feel free to ask and answer "YES and NO" questions to examine Catholic beliefs compared to Baptist (Particular and General) beliefs.


    Can a person be a Christian if they were never baptized in the Catholic (Roman, EOC, etc.) Church?
    (YES or NO)
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Yes. Even a Muslim or Atheist could baptize another person as long as the intention of the one being baptized is to be baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

    "where a Catholic brother asked "YES or NO" questions to expose the flaws in Calvinism."

    I would DEFEND Calvinism, I wouldn't want you to jump off the Calvinist Ship, its not flaws its flawed perspectives on how it might work. I think the philosophers haven't thought things through. I think if you pray, meditate and contemplate, you might work something out.
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response.
    It actually comes as something of a surprise given what I heard about God saving "His Church" (collectively) and the importance of baptism by a bishop with an apostolic "pedigree". (Which made Anglican bishops acceptable, while Mennonite bishops were not, for example).

    On another matter, would it be more accurate to characterize your questions as "to expose flaws in some Calvinist thoughts"?
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Yes, also don't want folks to be too hard on themselves. :p

    We need to take charge and mean it for things we believe, including me. Honesty and self sincerity.

    Iron sharpens Iron.
     
  5. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Can a person be born again if they were not baptized YES!!!

    Baptism has absolutely nothing to do with obtaining salvation/eternal life.

    Baptism is an outward action for an inward decision.
    Otherwise baptism only gets you wet;)
     
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  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit of a "red herring" to argue about "salvation by water baptism apart from the work of God" since nobody I know of advocates such a position. A more realistic question concerns those who claim "spiritual baptism" but steadfastly refuse water baptism.

    1. Is water baptism commanded in scripture?
    2. Does someone that willfully refuses to obey a command in scripture have reason to be concerned for their soul?
     
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    To all (Catholic, Baptist, whatever) ... multiple choice questions.

    1. How important is confession? [essential, important, optional]
    2. Should confession be to another person (priest, minister, elder)? [always, sometimes, never]

    (feel free to say more, if you have more to say.) ;)
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Can a catholic honestly hold to being saved right here and now, or must they await a final judgement still to come?
     
  9. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Actually, Church of Christ denomination believes in baptismal regeneration - ie you must be baptized to complete your salvation
     
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  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Confession should be made to God - always

    There are times that confession to an individual could cause other situations that would be best not to happen.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As do Anglicans and Lutherans believe!
     
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  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I had a knock down, drag out, no holds barred “discussion” with the members of one particular Church of Christ congregation at a social event. They were ganging up on some freshly converted Christian “baby in Christ” and telling him that his previous “baptism” was invalid and he was not really saved because you needed to be baptized by someone with authority traced back to Christ himself (like their Bishop).

    I started pointing out all of the people and verses in the Bible where that was not the case. Then they kept tag teaming off to older and older members. (I later learned that I started discussing with members, then debated with the elders, and finally ended up arguing with their pastor).

    It really pisses me off when people pick on new Christians with bad theology. Being a new Christian and trying to figure everything out is hard enough, without people throwing you anchors.
     
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  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Atpollard
    I agree with you - however- to CoC and other - Baptismal regeneration is a major doctrine,

    Suppose you and I were talking to someone -about their salvation. And we ask them if they are going Heaven.
    They answer Yes, because today I was sprinkled! As we continue the conversation, the individual states that
    he never asked forgiveness - as thats what sprinkling does - so we will show him the Romans Roadmap so he will
    repent of his sins.
    So we would be doing the same thing that other individual - standing firm on our doctrine.
    Its all the same - (except you and I are right!)


    Note: please disregard the meme below - trying to get rid of it.
     

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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Better. They can Trust God. Not a certificate of salvation or even obsess over salvation.

    In all ETERNITY it is in God's hands, if he were evil sure enough he snap his finger and POOF your in hell or don't exists, fill in the blank. We haven't existed even 5 minutes into eternity.

    My survival or "DIVINE ETERNAL SURVIVAL" is not the priority, obsessing over salvation only puts a wedge between God our Father who we ought to trust through and through.

    The "assurance" IS JESUS CHRIST. Not a certificate, not a divine oil stick pulled out of the nose that says "save" or "elect".

    I would not want any sort of "leverage" over God or people. This whole "danger" of existence the ignorance and fear is part of the problem in the first place.

    I think if we met Jesus in person there is a caliber of Goodness so good, so right, that is witnessed that the real Armageddon is the battle between your sigh of relief and joyous laughter.

    Its got to hit you down to the bones God has it all covered and cares A LOT more about you then YOU care about you.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Can a Christian lose salvation if s/he is unable to receive communion and commits a sin which the church calls a mortal sin?
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Does infant baptism secure salvation? If so, is it only until the child is aware of sin? At that time must a child receive communion to keep their salvation?
     
  17. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Baptism does NOT secure salvation for anyone. Communion does not secure not keep salvation.




    (Note: quote slightly edited to be PR)

    Once saved - Always save- No exceptions!
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I wonder what church does that.......lotta gluten free folks are gonna have to tough it out in hell.:p

    Unintentional and the Ignorant pretty much get a free pass.

    It could be a grave/mortal sin "missing the mark" if you put something ahead of God, break sabbath.

    The legalistic details of losing salvation is up to God.

    Imagine someone brought up Catholic, they are catholic for life in church eyes, they split to be a Baptist or whatever, obviously overtly not getting communion. Grave Sin "objectively", I don't think that's going to stick. He might be following his good conscience which is very integral part of Catholicism.

    The church is pretty merciful and tries to look at these things in a more positive reinforcement.
    It might even be possible to accuse that attending a holy day of obligation out of obligation is a sin, lol.

    I'm sure there's lot of coverage of "invincible ignorance" on the matter. Its probably more "graver" sin the more faithful and understanding someone is.

    For example I doubt most catholic believe in real presence of the eucharist, if not struggle with it. Toughest teaching, "surpassing understanding". Some folks say only 25% believe which is surprising to me I would have expected 1 out 10 or less.

    So imagine this is the belief you hold, The Whole Christ present, body, blood, soul, divinity. As good as, just literally Jesus in person. Once a week? they might have to beat you away from coming more than once a day. (church has limit of twice a day) So for you it might really be a mortal sin.

    Sincere heart is very important



    Hebrews 10

    19Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Is this a yes or a no?
     
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